I really appreciate the help on this.

I went at it yesterday and today.

Took out ICU, cleaned everything up, it did look fine and no evidence of any water ingress inside it, like new. Refitted and connected back up. No difference.

Swapped some relays around in the electrical box under the tank. There are three identical ones numbered 311. The book says 2 but I think the third is the headlight relay. No difference.

Disconnected and reconnected and clealed the multi connectors from the handlebar switches. No difference.

Swapped fuse 7 with a spare fuse and no difference.

When I put all back together it ran for about 10 minutes no problem. Used kill switch quite a few times and it restarted normally, no problem. At about 20 minutes it cut out and problem showed up again. I tried keeping revs up to see if this would prevent cutting out, it did not help. Actually seemed like fuel cut off. But when I press starter button again the fuel pump is working fine even though the starter fails to do anything.

This time I kept my finger on the starter button and after about 15 seconds the starter engaged and turned over briefly. This happened a number of times...delay and then engaged.

So, my guess is the starter button [checked connections], load shed relay [not checked], starter relay [already replaced with a new one] or starter [twice taken out and stripped -but I am open to being told I have not done it right]. As for the temperature sensor I know the coolant level is correct. Its due a change on next service in about 2 weeks so am leaving alone.

If I turn on the lights and then press the starter button the lights do not dim so there is no power drain happening making me wonder is it handlebar switching. Would running a wire from battery to the starter motor when this happens, as a test, be risky?

If a guess is the ICU I can get one from motorworks, same with load shed relay.

Questions now is: could there be a fuel supply/fuel pressure/injector problem that could cause this? If there is insufficient fuel pressure or fuel supply [eg fuel filter/pump fault- tank has done 23 miles from a full tank so plenty in tank] does this translate into preventing the starter from engaging? Reading posts re injectors I am wondering could this be a problem?

Was anice sunny day for a run and a little frustrating.

lights don't dim on start event ????....

that could be a clue

the process is suposed to be that the load shed relay become inactive whilst in the start event

The earth path for the load shed is through the starter motor ...so when inactive ,,,the relay should be engaged ...durring start event the earth of this relay should be ....um high = 12 volts so the relay doesnt energise and cutts off the lights durring ....if perhaps this wasnt happening ...the voltage under start conditions would be lower by a significant amount to all the important components ...icu ..ecu and all the rest ...

could the past owner have modified the operation / wiring .....and if so ...are those connections valid under load durring start conditions ......sounds dodgy to me ....

just a thought

I haven't had any experience of what Charlie99 is saying but I do remeber being told by someone just after getting the bike not to use the kill switch to turn it off as this would lead to problems eventually. It may be worth stripping the switch for inspection and cleaning. The delayed reaction to the starter button is curious.

88

Charlie thanks for post no 52.

To be more specific the lights do not dim when I press the start button and the starter fails to operate.

The lights do dim if I leave them on and then press the start button and the starter engages and fires.

Ths wiring has been modified by a previous owner, the bike was an ex police bike and I have been finding various modifications. Makes me wonder is it just the start button on the handlebar switchgear.

The only other clue that seems relevant is that if the bike is sitting a while it seems to always start at the first attempt.

92KK K100LT 193214 wrote:Swapped fuse 7 with a spare fuse and no difference.

Do you still got problems with horn and indicators?
Have you checked that you got power at the fuse terminal?
And if, it could be a open after the fuse terminal.

92KK K100LT 193214 wrote:So, my guess is the starter button [checked connections].

As your fuel pump is starting, it confirms that your starter/clutch/neutral interlock is alive and well, no need to examine the handlebar switch assy and its connections.
(but it could always be a intermittent open, further on in your harness.....but rather small posibillity).

92KK K100LT 193214 wrote: load shed relay [not checked].

This have nothing to do with the starting problems, the LSR is remoted from the starter relay.
When the starter relay doesn`t engage, the LSR won`t either.

My guess is still that your ignition ECU won`t ground your starter relay coil.

To confirm create two temporary wires from both sides of the relay coil, lay them in the tool tray.
When the problem occours, you can test if you got a signal when the starter button is pressed.....and if you got ground when the starter button not is pressed (ignition on).

yep check the start button on the handle bars ..could it just be a corrosion thing ?

i would also be cleaning up the emergency stop switch

it might be helpfull to check that there is an earthwire connected to that assembly as well , whilst your there (used for other things ).

a question though , do you have a sidestand switch ? could it also be in need of a clean up ?

here is a thought ....if you have a sidestands switch ....put the stand up ...then pull the clutch in and attempt a start . if the gear indicator switch (at the gearbox ) was intermitent this might contribute to a failed start process and by pulling in the clutch you bypass the signals from the gear indicator circuit .

might help to narrow it down at least

OK, few things here.

The bike will not inject if the engine is not turning over. It needs the pulse from the hall sensor to determine when to inject. No pulse - no injection.
So when the bike doesn't turn over you shouldn't get the injectors to work etc.
When you press the starter and the starter motor runs, but doesn't take the engine along your problem is with the sprague clutch of the starter transmission.
The fact that the lights don't go out when starting means that the load shed relay is not working properly. Now have a good look at your relays, as they are NOT all the same.
Looking at both I wonder if your starter motor carbon brushes are gone. Maybe not proper grounding the load shed relay and not making enough contact to run at speed? See charlies post earlier. What have you checked about that?

I have just re-read this thread and it appears to me that you have two seperate problems.
First the flasher problem, you checked the fuse and swaped it out for another but it could be that if the fuse is OK then an open circuit has occured futher along which is having the same effect. Check the wiring harness for abrasions near the steering head and elsewhere, a wire may have been pinched and broken. If you find a likely spot then cut the harness open and inspect all the wires you may also find the other problem.
Problem 2 is the intermittent stopping and refusal to start. I gather the starter doesn't turn at all and the LSR does not release cutting all power to all except the vital parts. I would say that the starter, starter relay and LSR can safely be eliminated as suspects.
You said that if you held the starter button down it would crank for a short time then stop and then after a short time crank again. This seems like a connector overheating and then cooling and heating again etc or a wire that is almost cut through and has 1 maybe 2 strands still conducting and when it gets hot it stops conducting enough current and then cools etc. A poor contact will do the same sort of thing.
I would be inclined to open the wiring harness and carefully inspect each wire even to the extent of pulling on each wire to see if a conductor break is present without a break in the insulation.
Check all earth points as these are often taken for granted especially the one under the tank just behind the ignition module.
I hope this is an 8v we are discussing and not a 16v engine, if it is a 16v check the ignition amplifier on the battery cradle and redo the heat sink paste where it bolts on the cradle

Rick, it is an 8v so you are safe. I have been opening and remaking connections as I was mindful of this being a risk. However it seems to point more to sensor/sensor connection or a fuel problem but I am going to revisit them again at the weekend.

Re post 57 would I be right in thnking of starter brushes were the problem I would have at least some draw of current causing the lights to dim? The lights dont dim at all suggesting there is nil current draw and also I have already twice dismantled and checked it out.

OK, in that case did you assemble it correctly? It has happened before that a starter motor was re-assembled wrongly and therefore turned the wrong way. As there was no resistance of the engine the starter motor was running, but no current draw (barely). Possible? I don't know if this happened immediately after the overhaul of the starter motor?

Hi Rene,

I do have to assume it is correct because it has been starting ok since then. The puzzle now for me is that the occasions when it does not start there is no electrical draw which would dim the lights. My thought is that if I had a problem with the starter motor now it would be a case of some power being drawn but not enough rather than no power as is happening now.

Fair enough, The only reason I can think of that the starter motor runs, but barely uses power is when it doesn't take the engine with it, basically indicating that the sprague clutch is seized 'open'. Did you try to reverse the bike whilst in gear a bit? That seems a temp solution (if the afore mentioned is the case) Do you make a lot of shorter trips? This could cause fauling of the sc. Some use a cleaning oil or diesel lub oil once in a while to prevent that happening. Lots of info on the site.

run a clip lead off the starter motor positive connection ...and measure the volts getting to it durring a start sequence .

this might confirm that the starter solenoid is actually being activated ....and has a weld spot on it ..which just might intermittently cause the thing to fail

if you get some volts ...but not 12 it could point to bad leads ...or weld spot on the starter

Charlie

Starter motor stripped twice. Starter relay [solenoid?] was replaced with a new one and also swapped back again and no difference. When the start fail seqence happens there is no power to the starter motor. However a lot of these posts are pointing back to the starter so I will have another look at this.

Olaf

Olaf, can you connect a volt meter over the starter relay actuating contacts? If indeed the starter sometimes doesn't get power it would be interesting to know if the relay is being powered, but doesn't switch or is not powered at all.

I went back at this today after a very long interval due to other commitments.

In the last two weeks I have;



Ordered a secondhand load shed realy from ~motorworks, due here tomorrow. Hope may solve problem, if not will hold it as spare.

Stripped, cleaned and checked starter motor again and the connections to it.

There are 3 relays marked 311, all identical. I moved them around.

Checked my switches, all seem ok.

Checked fuel pump connections, all good.

Ran well for ages today, so well I put it all back together and thought, I am going to work on her tomorrow.

Then it cut out and the problem has reappeared. When I press starter fuel pump runs, lights do not dim. If I turn on the cooling fan [I have a manual override] and then turn on the ignition the tone changes confirming power is being drawn to the ignition system]. Sometimes the starter does turn over, suggesting that somewhere the power supply is erratic. Starter relay is not being energised as there is no diming of lights.

I plan on putting in new load shed relay this week. Is this likely to cure it?

indeed it does sound like an intermittent power supply ...possibly in a cable or connection .

in the 2 valve the kill switch feeds back to fuse number 1 , possibly the 4 valve operates the same way

could there be a intermittent (streched cable or corroded connector) in this circuit ? so that when you move the handle bars it comes good every now and then ?

just trying to offer suggestions

92KK K100LT 193214 wrote:I plan on putting in new load shed relay this week. Is this likely to cure it?

Sorry, haven`t read the complete thread..ain`t got the whole picture but.....
As it seems like your starter relay don`t receive signal (or ground signal)
changing the LSR won`t make any difference, as it`s triggered by the starter relay output.

I just would add +1 to Rene`s suggestion about measuring starter signal when the problem occurs.

Establish a temporary wire from both sides of the coil, other end laying in the toolbox........
and measure both positive and negative when the problem occurs.

Inge thank you for that one. I got a secondhand LSR from Motorworks so I will store it.

The funny thing was that today sometimes if I kept the button pressed the starter would operate as it the problem was in the button or somewhere between that and the starter motor. The button does activate the fuel pump always so I know it works.

I already checked all of the connections so what have I missed.

92KK K100LT 193214 wrote:I already checked all of the connections so what have I missed.

That`s the question we try to find out ...since your fuel pump is running...every time?
.....I did suggest test wires from both sides of the coil.

The starter relay is grounded through the ignition ECU........
it could be that you find out that your problem is at this side of the coil.

Inge the fuel pump is running every time. This does tell me the handlebar switch is good? So I must look further.

92KK K100LT 193214 wrote:Inge the fuel pump is running every time. This does tell me the handlebar switch is good? So I must look further.

Yes, you are correct about that your starter switch is confirmed good...as the fuel pump is running.
I suspect that your problem could be at ground side of the starter relay coil.

Starter relay coil? The starter relay I think has 4 connections.

One to the starter motor, the heavy live cable.

One from battery to the starter relay.

One from handlebar switch to the starter relay.

One earth from starter relay?

I am guessing these but they should be right. So you mean to check the earth?

What is suspected is the starter relay signal which is connected to the relay coil, especially ground side.

The signal wires is connected with a T shaped connector.

Positive feed to the coil comes from the starter button (whichs seems to be confirmed good),
then the relay coil is grounded via the ignition ECU (suspected).

When the fault occurs...measure via the allready established temporary test wires....
if you got ground.......//////.......and feed, when starter button is pressed.

Inge the relay coil I take it receives [or should receive] the signal from the handlebar switch. The starter relay is good. I assume it should receive the signal then from the relay coil but is not. What does the relay coil look like? The other problem is that the engine does cut out and will not restart.

What signal causes or can cause the engine to cut out? When it does cut out the starter does not work to restart it.

I checked the relays so far. There are 3 which are identical and coded 31212. Fuel pump, indicators and horn. I interchanged these but made no difference [none expected]. Starter relay replaced with a new one. Load shed relay ordered. Only other one inside the control box is the flasher unit.

92KK K100LT 193214 wrote:What signal causes or can cause the engine to cut out? When it does cut out the starter does not work to restart it.

Ignition ECU or its connector/wiring, the starter relay coil is grounded through this unit.

That`s why I want you to establish a couple of temporary test wires, to check if you got signal and ground when the problem occurs.

I suspect ground via ignition ECU is the problem, and a problem with this unit/connector/wiring causes the bike to cut as you also would loose ignition spark.

Inge, this would seem to suggest the ICU is the source of the problem, or a connection from or to it. I have taken the ICU out and opened it to confirm no moisture or fooreign matter but not taken it apart. When this sproblem came up first it was definitely worse and seems to have improved with summer weather.....but not eliminated. I now have access to another ICU so perhaps I should simply change them over? I have done some other small tasks and am missing summer weather big time!! Thank you for all your help too. Not sure if I will be up your way but if you come down here you will be a very welcome guest.

92KK K100LT 193214 wrote:Not sure if I will be up your way but if you come down here you will be a very welcome guest.

Thank you very much.......I`ll keep it in mind........same way the other direction.
Been to England a couple of times...and want to do it again sometime........
so you newer know.

BTW. It`s the ECU under the front of the tank, that you have checked?

Inge, yes, the one inside the frame tubes at the front, behind the headstock. I must be careful to use the right names.

If I remember correct..........it was a Frence? guy that did have a identical problem about 4-5 weeks ago.

Olaf, definitely worth swappimng out the icu/ecu. Then maybe first Irish meet? We'll do that south coast spin.

88KE

88KE wrote: Then maybe first Irish meet?

Wait untill after, or bring a rope............

Inge K. wrote:

88KE wrote: Then maybe first Irish meet?

Wait untill after, or bring a rope............

88KE I have two options, one is to acquire a secondhand unit, seems I can get one reasonably. Sell on again without hassle. I had replaced all the fairing and panels etc so they have to come off again to get the petrol tank off. At least I am nimble fingered at it now.

Have you tested out my suggestion with a test wire from each side of the starter relay coil yet?

If you then got no ground at the negative side of the relay, and at the same time ain`t got spark (bring a spark plug for testing)..........then it`s no doubt.

Inge the starter relay is getting no signal. I will have another ECU here by Monday and will put it in next week and see what happens. If this is the problem then I am sorted. What I do know for certain is the starter relay is good and the load shed relay is good. Judging by the number of people having these problems having spares is probably a good idea!!

I will keep you posted.

92KK K100LT 193214 wrote:Inge the starter relay is getting no signal.

No signal at the positive side of the coil?????
Or no connection to ground?

No signal on positive side.

If you ain`t got positive signal, then it`s not the ignition ECU that is your problem.
If you had lost the relay ground, the ignition would be the suspected part.

Since your fuel pump is starting, you got signal from the starter button........
and if the same signal don`t enters the starter relay, it start to look like
something with your harness.

Inge I will check this again. A problem with the harness suggests a connection or bad connection. What I must look for then is the wiring from the starter relay back to the ICE/ECU? I do know that whatever is happening is also causing the engine to cut out as well because it loses power just before cutting out even though the fuel pump stays running.

I will check these again on Saturday but I am also going to put in the replacement ECU anyway as I must take off the petrol tank and part of the fairing again.

If it had been ground that been missing, the ignition ECU or wiring between this and the starter relay would be the suspected parts.

But with the surprising info about the positive signal is lost, the problem must be in the harness under the tank, or relay box (try to wiggling it a bit while pressing the button).

The wiring from the starter button is splitted, the positive signal goes to the ignition ECU, the FI ECU and the starter relay.

When you did find that you ain`t got positive signal to the starter relay, did you also check if ground was present?

I start to suspect that it`s more than one problem in your wiring.

Inge, where the wiring is split, between the starter relay, ignition ECU and fuel pump could be a problem. If the fuel pump is working and the others are not could suggest that this is a three way/connector block with a loose connection. A couple of times when I kept the starter button pressed it did kick in so it could be a connection.....I will look for that. I think a few hours on Saturday will helpt this. I did open up the connectors under the tank and remake them as this often solves an electrical problem if they have become loose. As far as I know I have them all nice and tight with good electrical contact but it gives me a lot to go on.

The wiring doesn`t split in a three way connector, at the starter relay positive signal input it`s one split.

And if it after goes to both ECU`s, which would be most logical.........it starts to become a mystery that your fuel pump starts and you don`t receive signal at starter relay.

It could be that it is another split in the wiring between RHS h.bar connector and the starter relay.................but that is far less likely.

Inge I did a lot with this last night.

Put in the replacement ICU under the petrol tank. Also cleaned a lot of connections and tightened them up. Cleaned all the earth connections under the petrol tank,

There seems to be two problems so I go with the first.

Everything starts and stops as it should, no cut out, any time I cut out the engine it restarted. So far this suggests the ICU has done its job.

I am now left with a remaining problem of horn and indicators. When I use either left or right switch all 4 come on, both left and right, but do not stay on. The cancel button does not seem to have any effect. The horn does not work. There is no click at the horn relay so I swapped it with another one, no difference. This suggests the relay is not getting power. Flasher unit does get power because it clicks. A closer look at wiring suggests there is a shared earth which is set up in the right hand handlebar switch [common to indicators and cancel switch] which could cause this. All the wiring under the tank now seems fine so it seems I should suspect a handlebar switch unit.

Fuse #7 have been mentioned more than once earlier in this thread,
this fuse feeds horn relay and flasher switched power and nothing else.

Have you tested that you got power at this fuse, and that the fuse connectors is undamaged?

Inge you did mention fuse 7 a number of times and I checked it. I will recheck it. the flasher unit is getting power, the horn relay is not. Could be a problem in here. I will look later at that one. The indicators do flash, its just all 4 flash and not left/right separately.

The flasher got both switched and unswitched power,
and it acts up like that when the switched power (fuse #7)is lost.

The flasher relay gets 2 power feeds (red/white on 30 and green/brown on 15) one is switched and the other unswitched, if the one from fuse 7 is gone then as you have seen strange things happen.
Replace the fuse I have seen old fuses give no end of trouble. also if the fuse is OK then check the wire comming from the switch.

I didn't put this post here I think Hal is close to singing Daisy