What is a jab trick? I don't want my computer confused, I'm confused enough!

With just a touch of the button you can get the pump to run for two seconds without the engine cranking, that's normal, but you can't start your bike that way. Just try to start it the normal way.

All injectors get their pulsing earth from the same pin of the fuel injection control unit, and get power from the same pin of the fuel relay, so if there's a consistent difference between the old and new injectors, I'm thinking there's a wiring problem.

Is it possible something got transposed or mixed up between cylinder 1 and 3? I am thinking of a comment in an earlier post. Its ok to swap 1/4 or 2/3 because they fire in pairs, but a swap from 1 to 3 will create issues.

The injectors have power to them through the green/red wire from the fuel injection relay and are opened when the engine control grounds them through the yellow/green wire.  They are wired so that they all operate together.  All four should be doing the same thing.

Crank the engine while watching the output from the injectors.  While the engine is cranking, turn off the ignition switch.  This will turn off the power to the injectors and if they are operating properly they should immediately stop flowing. This will confirm that the injectors are working properly.

I would suggest confirming that there are no problems in the wiring harness to the injectors before going any further.  Disconnect the big connector at the engine control unit and all the connectors to the injectors.  Pull out the fuel injection relay.  This completely isolates the injector wiring from the rest of the bike.

With everything disconnected there should be no continuity to ground from any of the pins with yellow/green wires on the injector plugs.  These yellow/green wires should have continuity from the injector plugs back to pin #12 on the big engine control plug. 

Then, check that there is no continuity from pin#12 on the engine control computer to ground.  There should be none when the engine is not running. 

If there is no pulsing of the injectors and they are flowing whenever there is power and there are no problems in the harness, then your problem is in the output transistor in the engine control that turns on the injectors.

Just to verify, the following videos from Mr Injector show how both faulty and functioning injectors appear. The 1.5–9 millisecond interval you cited in an earlier post, Kirk, is the interval of time when an injector is open before it closes—its pulse width. The 2 second interval that you stated the injectors were firing is the total time accumulated while they were opening and closing at the 1.5–9 millisecond rate while the pump was running.

The difference between a functioning injector and a faulty one can be illusive. It becomes starkly apparent in the flow rates.

Injector test.



Slow motion injector test.

daveyson wrote:With just a touch of the button you can get the pump to run for two seconds without the engine cranking, that's normal, but you can't start your bike that way. Just try to start it the normal way.

All injectors get their pulsing earth from the same pin of the fuel injection control unit, and get power from the same pin of the fuel relay, so if there's a consistent difference between the old and new injectors, I'm thinking there's a wiring problem.

Davey, I think you're misunderstanding perhaps my explanation sucks first of all I was not trying to start the bike at all yesterday. I was only testing for spark, testing the fuel pump pressure from tank to fuel rail and testing the spray with the fuel rail out of the bike through the injectors.
When I tested the spray pattern with the new injectors All four sprayed for 2 seconds, injector number two continued to spray after the 2 seconds, and injector number four dripped about one drop a second after the other two injectors stopped they're two seconds spray. 
My question is, is it normal with the jab method for the injector to spray for the entire time the fuel pump is priming? I read in the climber manual that the injectors should pulse at 1.5 to 9 milliseconds My mechanic told me that the two second spray would flood the engine it was delivering too much fuel. Why is it spraying for 2 seconds, is that normal, or is something telling it to spray for too long and flood in my engine every time I touch the button? I wish I could post the video. If anybody has WhatsApp and wants to send me their number I can send the video I've got the video down to 12 seconds but apparently it's the wrong type of file or two large of a file to post on here.

daveyson wrote:With just a touch of the button you can get the pump to run for two seconds without the engine cranking, that's normal, but you can't start your bike that way. Just try to start it the normal way.

All injectors get their pulsing earth from the same pin of the fuel injection control unit, and get power from the same pin of the fuel relay, so if there's a consistent difference between the old and new injectors, I'm thinking there's a wiring problem.

By the way, yesterday I swapped out the old injectors once I was having the two spray problems with number two and four of the brand new injectors that I just got from the United States not shutting off. I put in the old injectors and they sprayed equal turned on and turned off at the same time but also sprayed for 2 seconds. I'm not having any power problems from pins I don't think

kappy1027 wrote: I wish I could post the video. If anybody has WhatsApp and wants to send me their number I can send the video I've got the video down to 12 seconds but apparently it's the wrong type of file or two large of a file to post on here.

The common method used here to post videos is to post the video to YouTube, select YouTube's public option, then post the YouTube link here.

kappy1027 wrote:Davey, I think you're misunderstanding perhaps my explanation sucks first of all I was not trying to start the bike at all yesterday. I was only testing for spark, testing the fuel pump pressure from tank to fuel rail and testing the spray with the fuel rail out of the bike through the injectors.
When I tested the spray pattern with the new injectors All four sprayed for 2 seconds, injector number two continued to spray after the 2 seconds, and injector number four dripped about one drop a second after the other two injectors stopped they're two seconds spray. 
My question is, is it normal with the jab method for the injector to spray for the entire time the fuel pump is priming? I read in the climber manual that the injectors should pulse at 1.5 to 9 milliseconds My mechanic told me that the two second spray would flood the engine it was delivering too much fuel. Why is it spraying for 2 seconds, is that normal, or is something telling it to spray for too long and flood in my engine every time I touch the button? I wish I could post the video. If anybody has WhatsApp and wants to send me their number I can send the video I've got the video down to 12 seconds but apparently it's the wrong type of file or two large of a file to post on here.

First of all, I can appreciate the problem of dealing with us in what is probably your second language.  Considering the technical nature of our discussions you are doing a fantastic job.

The injectors should only spray fuel when they get a signal pulse from the engine control unit under the seat and there is fuel pressure in the rail from the fuel pump. 

The results you see from the "jab" seem to show that the injectors are staying open after the start button is released.  That is a problem because they should only be spraying when the engine is turning. 



From what I am reading it sounds like your injectors are spraying whenever the fuel pump is running and it doesn't matter if the engine is turning or not.  That is why I am asking you to do the tests in my earlier post.  It appears that something is turning them on when they should be closed, and we need to find what that is.

Some of the injectors could be pulsing but not delivering nearly enough fuel, as the two previous videos I posted. Other could be intermittently stuck open, as .75 indicates, or opening, sticking then closing.

Are your injectors operating like those of the K75 in the video. The K75 has the same type of control units. Start the video at 9:54.

Judging from the video, you have a ton of crap in the injectors that is probably stopping them from closing, not to mention the terrible spray pattern.

Try swapping two of the injectors and see if the pattern stays with the injector. I'm betting it will.

Is there a filter in the tank?  How old is it?  Have you cleaned out the rail?  If not, that goes to the very top of your to do list. 

I am surprised that the filters on the injectors aren't stopping the crap that is coming at them.  Your fuel system is filthy and needs desperately to be cleaned.

Take the rail off the bike and drain any fuel that is in it.  Clean it out with Dawn dish detergent in hot water, rinse and then soak the rail for a couple days in white vinegar.

While the rail is soaking, see if you can find somebody who can clean your injectors.  Then you need to replace the fuel filter in the fuel tank and take a very good look in the tank.  With any luck it will be clean, if not, you need to clean it.  Not a big deal, many of us have done that job to our bikes.

Yep I misunderstood, the video makes it clear.

I think point seven five's suggestions are good, and your brick will be going again soon.

The circuit guy is working on my fuel injection control module. Trying to keep me from having to buy a new one. They know not to do any tests without computer safe equipment. We'll see how it turns out.

Why test it before confirming it's faulty? The computer can't make some injectors behave differently than the others.

daveyson wrote:Why test it before confirming it's faulty? The computer can't make some injectors behave differently than the others.

The connection did smell burnt and my control unit sits right on top of the battery and I have a top post battery that's I think taller than stock. The original box is missing but the control unit sits in or on.

Yes I've had a similar problem, but that would effect all injectors equally. Separate them so the computer doesn't touch the battery, maybe temporarily remove the battery holder. Going inside the computer is one of the last things to try i think.

All of the injectors are having a similar problem they're all firing for 2 seconds with a touch of the button. That's causing the engine and the exhaust to fill up with gasoline. The bike won't start because it's flooded. I'm sure being full of liquid gasoline is bad for the compression in the cylinders, so we're trying to figure out what's causing the flooding.

Also when the computer is isolated from the battery?

Here's a test. Pull an injector plug. With a computer safe test light clamped to battery positive, touch the probe to one of the plug terminals while cranking (not a short jab) The test light should pulse on and off at the earth terminal, but remain off at the positive terminal (positive to positive)

The spray patterns in your videos are the result of blocked injectors.  Enough dirt to create those patterns will make the injectors stick open. 

Just for the hell of it, unplug the electrical connectors on the injectors and hit the start button.  What happens when they have no signal?

kappy1027 wrote:The circuit guy is working on my fuel injection control module. Trying to keep me from having to buy a new one. They know not to do any tests without computer safe equipment. We'll see how it turns out.

To a circuit guy, everything looks like a circuit problem.

I am hoping he fixes your problem.

Point-Seven-five wrote:

kappy1027 wrote:The circuit guy is working on my fuel injection control module. Trying to keep me from having to buy a new one. They know not to do any tests without computer safe equipment. We'll see how it turns out.

To a circuit guy, everything looks like a circuit problem.

I am hoping he fixes your problem.

I'm just hoping he doesn't make things worse. 

I know he helped your friend in the past and he deserves respect, but I think this time he isn't working in a logical sequence.

The job of the computer is to provide a pulsing earth to the injectors. There's a simple test to verify this, so opening the computer first just seems like a waste of time to me, I'm hoping not also a waste of money.

Even if the injectors are getting a constant earth, the problem could still be outside of the computer. If one of the earth wires to the injectors had shorted to the frame, then you would have a constant earth problem.

daveyson wrote:I know he helped your friend in the past and he deserves respect, but I think this time he isn't working in a logical sequence.

The job of the computer is to provide a pulsing earth to the injectors. There's a simple test to verify this, so opening the computer first just seems like a waste of time to me, I'm hoping not also a waste of money.

Even if the injectors are getting a constant earth, the problem could still be outside of the computer. If one of the earth wires to the injectors had shorted to the frame, then you would have a constant earth problem.

How long is the trip from Australia to Nicaragua? I would love if you guys wanted to come visit for a little bit. The weather's great, and I'm an outstanding host

I've always been interested in Latin America, it seems so exotic from over here, I believe you will soon have the fastest brick in all of Mekico (edit Nicaragua)

While he has the computer, here's another test. With a computer safe test light clipped to battery positive and probe to socket 12 of the plug for the computer (earth from the computer to the injectors) If the light glows, you have a short, you could tell the mechanic that you think you found the problem. You could check in a similar way with a multimeter, and there's also the checks that point seven five mentioned.

Thanks again Davey, and ask if you guys. Hopefully, it will be running Monday or Tuesday. I'm really hoping it was just dirty injectors

I'm with .75 - that injector spray pattern is awful. Here:

http://jamesduncanfyp.weebly.com/injector-spray-types.html

kappy1027 wrote:Thanks again Davey, and ask if you guys. Hopefully, it will be running Monday or Tuesday. I'm really hoping it was just dirty injectors

Are you doing anything to clean them beyond poking around in the engine control unit?

A couple days ago in post #54 I suggested a couple simple tests that would pretty much pinpoint your problem.  It appear that you are not considering them.

Am I correct to assume that I am wasting my time posting on this thread?

Point-Seven-five wrote:A couple days ago in post #54 I suggested a couple simple tests that would pretty much pinpoint your problem.  It appear that you are not considering them.

Am I correct to assume that I am wasting my time posting on this thread?

The injectors were cleaned as I was reading your post. The tank looked clean and I cleaned the fuel rail and soaked it in vinegar. If I missed another post I apologize. 

The bike it's running. There was a bad area on the circuit board and a capacitor needed replaced. I just drove it home from the shop for lunch.

I want to thank .75, Davey, Olaf and everyone else that contributed to ask I have learned so far. And I promise you all that my learning will not stop here. Hopefully one day I will be able to give advice as well as you guys do. You truly were a blessing and a help and I know Dennis aka Skidz would be proud

Congratulations! It's a fun ride isn't it!

 

Nice!  Now get out and put some miles/km's behind you!  That's the best(and most enjoyable) way to keep a brick running well.

fishboy316 wrote:Congratulations! It's a fun ride isn't it!

I'm finding it's a completely different ride than my radar 250 dirt bike that I have in country and all three of my Harleys that I have in the United States. It's going to be a very big learning curve! It's very torquey and if I don't get on the throttle slow enough my wife is not going to ride with me, which may or may not be a bad thing

Good work. You have taken it from a no-go situation, in long hibernation, to the fastest brick in all of Nicaragua.

Since it's hard to get parts there, would it be worth keeping an eye out for a cheap brick to keep as a parts bike?

daveyson wrote:Good work. You have taken it from a no-go situation, in long hibernation, to the fastest brick in all of Nicaragua.

Since it's hard to get parts there, would it be worth keeping an eye out for a cheap brick to keep as a parts bike?

It definitely is the fastest brick in Nicaragua, being the only one in Nicaragua. But you knew that!  It would be great to find a parts bike, unfortunately Nicaragua doesn't let you import a vehicle over 5 years old. Before January of this year it was 10 years old or newer but when I bought a vehicle in the US to import here that was 7 years old, they changed the law. Just my luck.

How did you end up in Nicaragua? I’m just curious because I spent a month there in Siuna as a volunteer vaccinator back in 1977.

duck wrote:How did you end up in Nicaragua? I’m just curious because I spent a month there in Siuna as a volunteer vaccinator back in 1977.

I'm a Freemason which is a fraternal organization worldwide and one of my brothers in Illinois invited me on a trip to Nicaragua with 15 other Masons to come and see his cigar factory and tour a couple other factory as well we were here. That was January of 2018 five of us returned for a second trip. In September of 2019 I came back out to see if I only felt safe in a group structure or if I can handle this country alone. 
You see, I was planning on moving here after the first trip and then I came out again to make sure a couple of times. In March of 2020 a friend and I came out because he couldn't make prior trips. He had just retired in January of 20. So we came out and almost got stuck in Panama returning because COVID had broken out.
I'm very into smoking cigars and this city I live in has around 600 different factories of different sizes, it's what was a good fit for me.

With imports, where there's a will, there's a way, as they say. Some countries have import restrictions on certain vehicles, but with the wheels removed, it becomes vehicle parts. Or with a certain number of parts removed, it becomes scrap metal. There might be a way.

There's a thread here called ” a fun watch" I think. It was about a traveller called itchyboots, that went through Nicaragua, and a lot of other countries. I think there was a fair bit of paperwork though.

Now I'm trying to get it down from 1500 RPMs to the normal sub 1000 RPM range. I need to fix my odometer so I can at least keep track of fuel because I don't have a gauge on this model. And it seems to be running hot, although the fan does come on and really blow the heat at my legs, so maybe it's just supposed to run this hot. Again I don't have a gauge. I'm also assuming that there's got to be a way to open the side tour packs with two hands. These latches act like they're protecting gold. Get one opened and as you open the other one the first one shuts. Get your gear out of the pack and try and get the tabs open to close the tour pack as a whole other fight.

It's been idle so long, it wants a good service, that will fix many of the issues.

My brick sat for years before I got it, and threw out a lot of heat on the first few rides. Bricks do run hot though anyway. The cylinders are nikasil lined, that's a super hard surface. I've read that nikasil lined engines need to  run hot. I reduced the heat to my legs by turning upside down the gaiter around the forks, which resulted in making them little air scoops. That was with an RT model though, dunno if RS models are similar.

There are threads on fixing the odo, but if it reads say 7777miles, probably some odo cogs are broken.

kappy1027 wrote:. . . it seems to be running hot, although the fan does come on and really blow the heat at my legs, so maybe it's just supposed to run this hot.

The fan seems to be running appropriately for a Brick operating in a warm climate, especially when in slow traffic, experiencing extended engine idling, or climbing steep grades. If the date of the last coolant flush and replacement is unknown, that should be undertaken soon. Regularly check the coolant level in the expansion tank gauge tube and keep it toward the MAX line.

Laitch wrote:

kappy1027 wrote:. . . it seems to be running hot, although the fan does come on and really blow the heat at my legs, so maybe it's just supposed to run this hot.

The fan seems to be running appropriately for a Brick operating in a warm climate, especially when in slow traffic, experiencing extended engine idling, or climbing steep grades. If the date of the last coolant flush and replacement is unknown, that should be undertaken soon. Regularly check the coolant level in the expansion tank gauge tube and keep it toward the MAX line.

Doing brake fluid change and fork tube oil change today. Will tackle the radiator flush next weekend. I'd like to replace the hoses because when you squeeze them they sound a little crunchy inside. The problem is I can't get new hoses here, because as I said any auto parts I bring in have to fit in my pocket or a friend's pocket when they come.

If you're worried about the radiator hoses then carry some of this or similar:
https://www.rescuetape.com/


And if you're REALLY worried then you could even pre-wrap all of the hoses with it.

duck wrote:If you're worried about the radiator hoses then carry some of this or similar:
https://www.rescuetape.com/


And if you're REALLY worried then you could even pre-wrap all of the hoses with it.

I'm more worried about the inside coming apart and dropping little bits into the flow of water and then into little passageways in the radiator and parts of the engine and blocking flow, then I am of exterior rupture. I was wondering if the silicone radiator hoses are recommended or frowned upon? Do they tend to collapse when hot and under suction?

I have silicone ones on a couple of my Ks. No issues.

Brazil customs confiscates car parts too. What a crazy policy.

Did a previous owner use well water in the cooling system?  I bought a bike that had some pretty heavy mineral deposits in the system that caused it to over heat.  Those deposits will make the hoses kind of crunchy.

A couple good flushes with distilled white vinegar cleaned out the crap lining the coolant passages.  Fill the system with vinegar and run the engine for a few minutes to circulate it  and then let it sit over night.  It might not be a bad idea to clean out the fins with a vinegar soak as well.  My bike had a lot of bugs and dirt stuck in those fins.

When you refill the system, use distilled water in a 60 water/ 40 coolant mix.

The coolant hoses on Bricks seem to be nearly indestructible.  All my bikes had original hoses and the only problem I had was when I tore a hose on my RT when I went down on an icy patch.  If they don't leak, I would let sleeping dogs lie.

kappy1027 wrote:The problem is I can't get new hoses here, because as I said any auto parts I bring in have to fit in my pocket or a friend's pocket when they come.

Why can't you work with the NAPA auto parts store in Tegucigalpa? They have an international reach. Where do you live in relationship to there?