My output shaft needs attention .

I do not have any rattles, tapping,  hot or cold.  just an annoyingly heavy buzz sound from the front of the bike.

Listening to the water / oil pump housing and the cam cover at cylinder number 4 via a long screwdriver 

confirms the source of the noise.

I have some questions 

1. Does anyone know if the later k1100  units ever suffered from loose rivets.

2. Forum member " The Mason " mentioned that removal of the anti backlash gear, completely eliminated 

the " K100 drone" from the engine, but did allow a little noise at tickover .  Has anyone done this?

3. Would this allow damage to the main gear without the backlash facility.

4. Did the 12 rivet unit suffer from the backlash gear spring failure I see from the early type.

I changed the cam chain because I thought it was the noise I was hearing. 

Best thing with this bike is easy access to a lot of the major components.

Am looking forward to a quiet bike again soon..

Right..xmas shopping list for my other half,  forget the usual stuff, this is important.....

12 rivet unit , probably ..I am not normally that lucky

Output shaft bearings, shims, circlip etc

Damper rubbers 

Intermediate housing bearing

Gearbox seal

anything else anyone ?

Bob

Be sure its not your alternator drive......

good point Olaf

if your doing the output shaft restoration , don't forget to add the buffer rubbers that fit inside the output shaft barrel assembly
it appears to me that they shrink in time and work  letting slight movement of the output shaft rotationally and especially under back off loading and idling at lower revs

im sure this movement adds to the flogging out of the rivets

also don't forget the pin that holds the spring in the backlash gear assembly ...have seen a couple of them almost worn through where the spring makes contact , along with the widening of the retainer hole at the other end of the spring ....given you don't find a low k replacement 12 rivet version

you may also need the rubber seals that are used between the top and bottom half of the "sump " assembly  (water and oil supply things ) and a really good sealant ...three bond is great  so is permatex ultra black

the small front roller bearing is also important  and could be overlooked ..just get one ...not expensive

hoe that explains some things to look at ...
cheers

I found the alternator front bearing noisy, so I swapped both but the noise persists, 

although I didnt listen whilst the alternator was out, so will try that first, as I believe someone 

cured their problem with it removed. Cannot remember whether this noise was there when I ran 

my old 33 amp unit. If the noise dissapears , I will fit the old one and see what happens.

Either way, I need to confirm which shaft I have inside and its condition.

I couldnt hear any obvious noise around the intermediate housing or around the gearbox .
 
I will swap all bearings whilst in there, and check everything on the new 12 rivet unit , motorworks are showing 

some in stock, should mine have the old one.

I have tri bond sealant.

Just a shame I didnt realise the noise could have been from the output shaft before replacing 

the timing chain.  Live and learn I guess.

Bob

Maybe the water pump. I feel like saying the fan belt, but I won't. You can look at the rivets with the crank cover removed.

Check endfloat.

The circlip on mine was dished, the concave side faces the bearing,  although mine's a k100

Finally got to the point of removing the bottom end cover only to find I have a 12 rivet output shaft..

hhmm.

My LT was produced in November 1989 so is down for a 12 rivet unit according to OEM parts 

catalogue, but as Rick G said, the only way to know is look in there.

In a way I was hoping to see a tired 6 rivet unit in there.

Maybe the lash  spring assembly is worn, or a noisy bearing somewhere in the bowels of the motor.

I will get the gearbox and intermediate housing off in the next few days , and hopefully find the source 

of the noise.

Listening via a  screwdriver,  the noise came from the front of the water pump and at no4 cylinder 

in line with the output shaft.

Has anyone heard of loose rivets on the later unit.

Onwards and upwards

Maybe check that there is no endfloat on the output shaft before removing the intermediate housing (and clutch housing)

Hi daveyson,

I am not sure how to measure the end float without removing the intermediate housing.

The unit is coming off anyway , so end float is something I need to read up on and get right

before reassembly.

As mine has the 12 rivet unit , I really hope to find the answer to my noise.

On a more positive note, the new rear main seal I fitted last year is oil tight,  so the pain in the ass 

method of using a pill bottle to preform the seal overnight worked very well.

I will replace the seal along with all other single use fixings.

The clutch nut was still very tight, so no need to check that periodically as some guys prefer to.

Just need to replace some buggered bolts 

Bob

A dial gauge is the proper way but if, for example, one of the thrust washers is gone, the play would be so excessive, you could feel it with your hands. Grab the clutch housing with your hands,  try to push it in and out. If there's any movement at all,  that's a problem. It would be a quick easy check before removing the intermediate housing.

Thanks daveyson.

I have removed the clutch , and all but on one of the intermediate housing bolts .

I will replace a few bolts , then  wind the clutch nut back on and check for free play that way.

It would be nice to check for free play prior to removing it.

I presume there should be no longitudinal play.

I will leave it for the weekend,  so will get back to you later  Monday.

Thanks , this is a great idea.

Bob

True,  there should be no longitudinal play. 

So how was the thrust washer anyway?

If the thrust washer is the cause of the problem,  you may not have to remove the intermediate housing.

The 1mm thrust washer  is ok, and in place behind the clutch basket ,  so I replaced the basket and retorqued the 

clutch nut, but could not feel any longitudinal play.

The alternator dog drive bearing seems ok, so hopefully will find something amiss when the 

output shaft comes off tuesday.

Just need to find some more straps.

Onwards...

Just read your original questions again. I think I've read somewhere that the earlier absorber spring was too stiff, so that problem would be less likely on your bike. And the earlier rubber dampers got too hard with age,  so again less likely with your brick.

Hi daveyson,

things have been slow due to a leak on my garage flat roof, directly above where the bike sits 

on the lift.  typical, sods law..

I must admit to being a little disheartened to find a twelve rivet unit in there.

In really dont want to put it all back without finding a cause of the noise.

Just need to wait a couple of days to see if the roof is sealed, then I can remove the bugger.

Another way to look at it is it's good you have the better twelve rivet unit. Maybe the output shaft is good. Another long shot, could it be something simple like a wonky timing chain tensioner? Oil blocked maybe. Maybe the noise at the front was more to the left.  Check for damage to the timing chain cover where the chain goes around the output shaft.

The timing chain was renewed along with a k75 tensioner for good measure, and was quiet when I listened 

to it.

Using a screwdriver, the noise was definately from the water pump housing, more on the driven gear area, 

rather than the dog drive driven by the output shaft.

There was some noise from the rear  of the shaft , inline with no4 cylinder

Providing my garage roof is now leak free, I will remove the shaft tomorrow.

Thanks for the interest daveyson

Bob

I Finally removed the bugger...

Found something odd,  there was an allen bolt missing from the corner of the upper sump casting.

Now my K100 was an impulse flea bay purchase, relatively cheap, but I think I can trust the mileage.

Rick G commented on some 8 rivet units  failing with low mileage, so perhaps a previous owner

has been inside the motor before, and put a later unit in.

The spring , holes, and pins all look good, but whether the shiny marking on the shim is normal, I will leave that

 to the more informed .

Most of the smaller rivet heads are not in the centre of their casting as my fotos will show,

but again, this might be normal, they all seem tight.

There are marks on the big bearing outer race, and where the bearing sits in the casting.

All the bearings seem good, but will be changed .

Please feel free to add your thoughts,  the more the merrier.

Bob

Was it one of the main internal bolts that was missing?

The missing bolt resulted in a loose fit eventually, causing the outer bearing race to turn.  In my case I sprayed WD40 on those bolts but had to wait a number of days before some of them would release.  I will guess the previous owner (or whoever did it) didn't have the patience,  and stripped the thread, so threw the bolt away. I would check carefully if the thread is stripped where the bolt is missing.

Hi daveyson,

it was an allen bolt on the outside in the corner adjacent to the rear bearing .

the four inner bolts were all tight.

Bob

Hmm,  the shoulder of the outer race doesn't have turn marks but the rest of it does.  Can you see anything that might have caused it?  I don't think a smaller bolt missing would matter too much.


Were the rivets a snug fit?

the manual says to loctite the bearing in situ, but I didnt see any evidence of it , as it came out

fairly easily.

The rivets look good, as I never suffered from heavy clanking as some have.

Not sure how to really check them though

When you spin the bearing there should be resistance like from grease,  there should be no noise. 

I'm thinking there shouldn't be a gap between the circlip and the bearing. Maybe replace spring and circlip anyway, and a shim to suit.

The bearing came out easy in my case too,  but loctite sounds good.

All the bearings look good, but will be replaced, also the circlip, shim, spring and rubbers. 

There are previous posts concerning the wear on the shim, and the Marks on the spring, so I need 

to find some answers before it all goes back together.

Bob

The shiny part of the shim is normal (unless damaged of course) It's outer diameter will match the outer diameter of the bearings inner race. The darker part doesn't come into contact with anything.

I would ignore the outer race marks if they feel as trivial as they look, since you're replacing it anyway and using loctite for good measure.

I first thought there was a gap between the circlip and the inner race,  but it's hard to see because of the shadow, maybe there was no gap.

It would be interesting to compare the rubber dampers.

Is it necessary to use uni-moly c220 moly spray on the backlash gears and spring when reassembling the unit, 

or could I use the  Molybdenum disulphide  spray from Ambersil.

trying to save some money .....

Bob

Bob
Lets not get to OCD mate, use what you got

Hi Volador,

I came across a guy who wrote about his experience undertaking his output shaft repair, and he used the spray 

but I cannot find any mention of it being used any where else.   

As far as finding the reason for my noise, the backlash spring pin locating holes are very slightly loose,

and the current shim is slightly undersize, but cannot imagine this is the cause.

At least it has given me the chance to clean the sprag clutch , and change the gearbox seal whilst I am in there.

The cush rubbers seem  good, but will be changed along with all the bearings ,and  clutch basket thrust washer

If the bugger is still noisy, then I shall ignore it and continue to give it a damn good thrashing

John cleese style..

Bob

Maybe my questions is also about engine output shaft:
I did take off my gearbox to renew clutch gaskets. I noticed that center of clutch, there some small part. In haynes manual it seems to be same level with the outer part but mine is bushed in about 10mm. Should this be fixed or what to do?
Is the clutch rod pushing here? So when its too deep it doesnt work right? Can this be replaced?
Photo for better explanation:

EDIT: Is this pilot bearing bush? How do I replace it or what is the part number for that?

Hi Freed,

11211461539 




This the BMW part number for the clutch pushrod bush.

Mine sits about 10mm inside and the clutch push rod sits against it.

Never changed one, but I guess its not too difficult.



Bob

audibob wrote:Hi Freed,

11211461539 




This the BMW part number for the clutch pushrod bush.

Mine sits about 10mm inside and the clutch push rod sits against it.

Never changed one, but I guess its not too difficult.



Bob

Should the pushrod go trough that bushing?

Hi Freed,

you need to continue your clutch queries on your original post, as my questions are concerning the 

output shaft only.

Bob

Maybe Bert's rebuild has a tip for your output shaft and tensioner spring

http://www.kforum-tech.com/k100-Renovation/K100.htm

Seems like you found the problem with reduced tension in the spring. 

The appropriate shim for the clearance is given in BMW 2v workshop manual,  page 11-74.0

I wouldn't use Molly on a gear installed in the engine, if it makes its way to the sprague clutch, you might have a new problem. Couldn't find that recommendation in Haynes,  don't think you will find it in any workshop manual.

The clearance between the bearing shoulder and the gear is 1.5mm.

The current shim measures 1.4mm on the unworn area, so a smidgeon outside BMW running clearance limits.

Whether this , and a very slight movement on the spring holes , is enough to produce 

the noise I hear , I am not overly confident .

I intend to fit the thickest shim possible which still allows the backlash gear to rotate against the spring, with 

the bearing and its clip in place.

Unfortunately I can only get 1.45 and 1,75 shims from bmw , so I may have to reduce the larger one 

down to the size I need  on a flat table and emery paper, someone else had to do this on another forum.

There was no indication of either bearings having been loctited in situ, but again, 

would that produce noise, Time will tell. 

I have ordered both 1mm and 1.5 mm thrust washers for the clutch basket, but 

how do you measure the end float to use the correct one.

There was a 1mm washer fitted 

Am currently waiting on parts from Germany , so rebuild will begin in ten days or so.

I shall almost be reluctant to fire her up again in case the noise is still there.

Thanks for your help guys

Bob

So that gravity eliminates unwanted clearance I held the output shaft vertical with the big bearing to the top. I don't know where the BMW recommended cutoff  point is between a 1mm washer or greater,  but it seems to be recommended to replace with the one you have.  In my case the thrust washer clearance (with the thrust washer removed) was 0.66mm, and it had a 1mm washer,  which seems about right, I would say.

Turning the key after you have finished the job is the best and worst part of mechanical jobs,  sometimes you have to brace yourself for it.

daveyson wrote:I wouldn't use Molly on a gear installed in the engine, if it makes its way to the sprague clutch, you might have a new problem. Couldn't find that recommendation in Haynes,  don't think you will find it in any workshop manual.

What he said!

I did a cylinder head job on a K100 a few years ago and used moly assembly paste when I put everything together.  A week later the sprag wouldn't engage.  After a flush with Seafoam in the oil and an oil change it started working again, and hasn't given any trouble since.

I don't know if it was a coincidence, but the sprag worked fine both before and after the moly episode.  Now, I just put a light smear of bearing grease on parts when I reassemble them.

Right, time for an update.

I think my bike has had enough of being hoisted aloft, with her rear end on display in a most unelegant

manner. think she has been sticking pins in an effigy of me..

First my garage roof leaked, then my porch roof leaked, and to top it all, I managed to get a nasty tooth

infection.  

Doctor said it was viral, dentist said it might be a root canal job.  but bear with it, and see how it goes...

yesterday was the first time in a week I slept for more than fours , but its getting better.

I have all my parts now so I will be able to set the backlash gear shim soon.

Bmw shims are very expensive compared to elsewhere.

I intend to us the old bearing to set the clearance,  and then replace with the new one.

I need a method the determine the running clearance between the two gear sets, so I can compare 

when fitting the new bearing .

I wont be using moly on the gear set.

And It is snowing here in the uk, 

Bring it on..

I'm thinking there is no clearance between the gearsets and there shouldn't be. Mine had a rebate in the absorber gear where the spring was located,  however again mine was an RT, and a bit different to yours. 

Use the help of a workshop manual, if you're not already. I don't think a workshop manual recommends measuring that distance. 

Here is a drawing I made, it's rough but helps to understand how the different parts interact.

Need help with adding a photo, l thought there was a thread on it at the tech page, can't find it. Or just a how to, if it's simple.

It's just dawned on me that though I thought you commented that the springs hole or pin wasn't worn,  I can't find that now, but you have said it was a loose fit. So that could be the cause (like Charlie said)   when I thought loose was referring to a lack of tension in the spring.

It's also just dawned on me that in the first photo the teeth on the gears are in line,  when they shouldn't be,  so the pin, hole or spring are worn. 

I don't think you have to worry about the bearings turning even though they came out easily, when you torque the inner bolts the bearings will be under a lot of pressure.

Now that my tooth abscess is sorted I feel like venturing back into the garage.

The annular spring fitted was showing slight wear on one of the locating  holes, but both pins  were ok.

The shim I removed is slightly undersized

The foto shows both gearsets together, but that was with them clamped prior to removal.

The lash gear can be moved behind and in front of the main gear.

Monday I will reassemble the unit using the original parts and try and find a reason for the noise.

I am in no rush to rebuild her, so patience is the key for me.

None of the bearings are noisy as I expected.

I cannot see how the large bearing would be rotating.

The noise has been increasing over the last 25k miles , so I hasnt just happened, 

and I have no heavy knocking ala the rivets., so it must have something to do with the shimming.

Bob

First, thanks for the PM'd help with how to post a photo.

This was the drawing I made to help me understand how this tricky little unit works. This drawing, I think, shows the following points.

- The bearing is fixed in position in the engine casing.
- The gear assembly (the gears and their shaft, purple) is locked to the bearing with the circlip, so that they become like one solid unit.
- When torque is applied to the clutch nut, the following components are compressed between the nut and the output shaft shoulder on the right side of the drawing; compression ring, clutch housing, spring housing and absorber.
- The fibre thrust washer (and spring housing components) are also compressed. Since the thrust washer clearance is only slightly less than the thrust washer thickness, only a small amount of pressure is applied to eliminate output shaft endfloat, which is all that is required. Also, only a small amount of pressure is applied to the absorber assembly, so that it can compress under heavy load. The output shaft and its components are tied to the gear assembly with torque to the clutch nut so that they become like one solid unit, except for the minimal movement allowed in the absorber.
- If the thrust washer were too thick, the pressure on the absorber assembly would be increased, to the point where it might not be able to compress. A thrust washer too thin would have the opposite effect.

I've taken liberties with naming the parts cause I'm not sure I've got my hands on the full factory manual yet.

Anyway, just curious, if you did measure the thrust washer clearance, what was it?

something in this Service Bulletin 2289 K100 Lash Gear Noise may be of use

SB 2289 LASH GEAR NOISE

Hi daveyson,

 on your drawing, between the absorber driven gear and the absorber , you drew a spring housing, 

diaphram spring, and a fibre washer.

I cannot see this on the oe parts drawing.

During running, does the backlash gear move at all, whilst trying to keep the driven gear in mesh with the crank gear. 

The reason I ask is that on my fotos below , you can see marks on both the annular spring and the backlash 

gear faces, as does the shim I removed.

This suggests to me that there is movement on the backlash gear , to produce the evidence 

of metal to metal contact. 

Interestingly, the annular spring wear marks are only around the anchorage pins .







The shim I removed has wear marks on it, and where it sits against the gear face.

I have seen fotos of badly worn annular springs, with out seeing marks on the gear faces.

Could this be the source of the noise I hear, and if so, why .

Whilst I had the unit reassembled on the bench, I noticed the amount of travel the spring allows

the backlash gear to travel.

 The backlash gear travels more clockwise than anti clockwise in relation to the adjacent driven gear tooth.

Given that the unit is traveling anticlockwise 

when viewed form the front, then there is less spring tension against the driven gear ,  and more  away from it.

Has anyone else noticed this.

I am very interested to find how the back lash gear operates under normal running .

I would assume it should not move, ie, helping the driven gear to maintain perfect mesh with the crank gear.

The marks on my unit might suggest otherwise .

I have a report stating that high engine noise could result from incorrect mesh between the crank and driven 

gear, and adjustment of the annular spring should be undertaken by bmw to acheive a clearance  no less than

 1mm.

Sorry about the length of this , but I need some answers..

Bob

audibob wrote:. . . I have a report stating that high engine noise could result from incorrect mesh between the crank and driven gear, and adjustment of the annular spring should be undertaken by bmw to acheive a clearance  no less than 1mm.

. . . I need some answers..

Did you read all of the description and follow the instructions at the link volador supplied in Reply 42?

Thanks Laitch

 I do tend to read  all my replies and digest any  information guys offer up.

My last post is concerning why I have the wear marks, and how it might produce the noise I hear,

and how the sprung loaded lash gear operates under load conditions, whether it can move against the spring.

If no-one has any answers then that is fine and I shall reassemble the motor and see how she goes.

Thanks to all contributors

Bob

Good find volodor.

I think the main reason for the thrust washers is to prevent sliding metal to metal contact against the gear assembly shaft when the rubber dampers come under compression, so then there needs to be one on both sides of the gear assembly. The drawings are all over the place, some show none of the parts inside the absorber, both Haynes and Clymer show both thrust washers but not the other parts. At Tech Page/Manuals/BMW shop manual, page 11-74.0 (page 121 of 461) there is an untitled, unlabeled drawing about shimming that also happens to show these internal parts.

The gears do not move relative to each other, but the teeth are cut at an angle, so there will be some side load, so end float is also important for this reason. Unfortunately Murphy's law put a shadow at this impotant point, you should see no gap there at all.

Marks from the spring are normal, dunno if excessive, hopefully you get more feedback, I'm pretty new to BM's. As in volodors post, if the spring has lost tension, it can vibrate, causing the noise (and marks) There will still be metal to metal spring contact, even with the right shim. I'm deliberately ignoring your spring travel questions, mines way different to yours, mine could only be compressed, not extended. You might be lucky with Clymers, which has a lot about newer models.

Does any of your symptoms match those in volodors post? Actually it's to do with a model earlier than mine, and yours is newer again, but still lots of good stuff there.

Check that the pins are a snug fit to the holes when your new spring arrives, then you can eliminate that cause. I think that your plan of attack is good, in that you are replacing with new, the possible causes in volodors post. For sure you've spent a stack of hour on this, so I'm also thinking read volodors whole post.

Pull the absorber and rubber dampers out of the absorber housing, and have a sticky beak at those inner bits, I think they will be right though. It should take a fair amount of pressure to fit the circlip in place, and also to turn the idler gear, It should probably laugh at gorilla pressure with your hands. In my case it took multiple attempts with circlip pliers to refit the spring, there was a lot of tension there. A worn diaphragm spring could effect the thrust washer clearance.

Did you measure the thrust washer clearance?
Would you describe the buzz as high or low pitch?
Was the noise loudest at idle when cold, then quieten down when the engine was warm?

Hi Daveyson, Volador,

I need to understand about your reference to a washer , I cannot find any reference to a fibre washer 

other than the one on the clutch carrier.

I think the main reason for the thrust washers is to prevent sliding metal to metal contact against the gear assembly shaft when the rubber dampers come under compression, so then there needs to be one on either side of the gear assembly. 


I seem to have made two mistakes, one was not marking the positions of both crank and ouput gears.

Whether this makes any issues over time, who knows.

The other one is that on the service bulletin Volador found, it states the clutch basket fibre washer is a single use 

item .

I measured mine, which has been fitted twice now and is slightly undersize now as you expect, but 

whether this makes any difference who knows.

I am sure I have read  about someone using a metal thrust washer instead.

If the clutch basket washer is in poor condition, would it be possible to exert pressure on the bearing inner

race whilst tightening the clutch nut, maybe stressing the bearing, and producing noise?

I did look at your sketch to see if it was possible,( thanks for that ), but I am crap at technical drawings.

As I said before , my lash gear shim is slightly undersize, and there is slight wear on one of the spring holes, 

only time will tell if this is the cause, but I am not convinced.

I have a few days work to make up threaded rods to guide the sump back up without smearing the 3 bond

 everywhere. as its on my stand, and to clean up the exhaust threads.

MY bike is very qiuet at tickover, no heavy knocking, but at over 40mph, I can hear and feel harshness

coming from the front . 

It would be interesting to set the bearing shoulder somehow in a vice , to assimilate the bearing in its housing 

slot then replace all my current  bits and torque the clutch nut and see how the lash gear moves and 

if by using the fibre washer twice has had any adverse effect on the unit as a whole.

Thanks again guys.

Bob

I have just found the washer you are talking about behind the cush rubbers on a Haynes manual diagram.

Strange that BMW oe parts catalogue shows no mention of it.

BSK speedworks call it a stop plate

Odd 

Bob

Look at the drawing at your own pace,  it's not a race. I think the comment about marking the crank and output gears relates to K75 models,  if you can find it back.

Tightening the clutch nut will not damage the bearing.  Look at the bottom of the drawing, which is easier to look at. Imagine you threw the purple bit in the bin (gear assembly) you could still torque the clutch nut to heaps, no worries. Only a small amount of pressure is applied to the gear assembly.

How about the thrust washer clearance, did you measure it? Hold the output shaft vertical with the big bearing to the top ( I mistakenly said small to top previously, will edit that now) I welcome any comments, positive or negative, for example to iron out any stuff ups,  like this one.

Did you tighten the clutch nut whilst checking the clearance , or just use  a mallet to get the basket

onto the ouptput shaft splines.

BMW only supply two washers anyway, I think the 1.25 is to allow the seal to sit 

on an unused part of the shaft.  I left my seal protruding slightly with the 1mm washer, you get the same result 

either way.

My damper housing does not contact the gear housing when fully pushed together, so the need for

a thrust washer is confusing. BMW do not show one, but everybody else does.

BMW states that, if there is excessive engine noise,  file away part of the annular spring tang, or in my case, 

one of the spring pin holes, to reduce the tension, and therefore increase free play between the gear sets.

So...you make thousands of these engines, BUT you may need to strip the bugger down and attack 

it with a file to make it quiet.

Engineering ...really.

Of course, in order to do this , you need to  check it before removing the upper sump casting,

and even then, you only get a small view of it behind the crank.

Things can only get better , or quieter.

I have ordered some moly spray for the gear sets, so in about a week, when swmbo stops giving 

me other jobs, I can start assembling the gearsets and check the movement of the backlash gear

and spring.

 Then I will refit the shaft in position, supported by cargo straps, and  attempt to check the gear free play as per

 the bulletin.  Fingers crossed I can keep the file  in the toolbox.

Finally... 

The output shaft needle bearing outer casing has an oilway , given that there is no oil gallery feed from the

 bearing upper housing, I presume to fit the bearing with the oil hole at the bottom, for splash feed ??

Bob