Quote,  Bob;  "I have a 1.25mm thrust washer, and my old seal outer surface is good,  so I will try it"

I hope you don't try it,  that would put more pressure on the diaphragm spring (and other bits) than its been designed for.

You can re torque the clutch nut multiple times without risking damage to the diaphragm spring, as it's designed to be compressed it's entire life, but not with the thicker washer.

Although I would love to see if it could be done, it will have to wait.

If I had a spare motor in the garage then I would go ahead and see what happened, but I have been off the 

road since xmas  and I need am get the bike back running, so back to the normal method, albeit carefully.

Bob

If you had a spare clutch housing and removed the shaft part, like you mentioned earlier, so you could see the seal, your idea sounds interesting. I don't think it will drive it home, I spose most of the way though. There needs to be some clearance between the clutch housing and the engine case, and there needs to be some clearance between the clutch housing and the seal.

Actually, if the big holes in the clutch housing are in a favourable position, you could could try it (with your old seal) without a thrust washer, while keeping an eye on the seal so it doesn't go in too deep, maybe. I spose you won't need much torque.

Actually, that first means heaps of endfloat on the output shaft, and no pre load on the absorber gear, starting to do my head in.

An innocent question, how many seals have you ordered?

OK starting on a clean slate.

While you're waiting for the new seal,  give it a go with your old seal. Don't bother with the clutch nut, try pushing the clutch housing with your hands, or tiny taps.

I now have a spare seal.

Pushing / little tapping to start it will only work if you put it next to the burgers in the freezer overnight,

then you run the risk of the cold possibly affecting the ability of the lip to seat against it running surface.

I would risk it if I had the BMW seal which from fotos, does not come preformed.  

By using a smaller diameter preformer, the seal lip would have to travel more to follow the running surface.

My first trial will use my original seal on its running surface , if it goes ok, then I will get a 40x80 bearing to sit 

on  the running surface, so the seal will sit well forward but depends whether there is enough thread .

I havent been in the garage for a couple days due to other commitments , but I have a few free days now.

Onwards and upwards, or inwards and outwards....

Bob

Have you got something bigger than 10mm undersize for pushing?

 I'm wondering if Teflon is worth the headache.

Since testing anyway, maybe smear grease on the thrust washer so it sits in its final destination, for less hassles when installing the clutch housing and seal. Not sure if that helps but anyway.

I placed the old seal the wrong way around on the basket , and used it to drive the new one ,   nice and straight.

Much less hassle, finished off with fine adjustment hammer..




The cush drive end plate gap closed up 




not sure why I got double foto,,,

All went great until I realised I had forgotten to thread the coolant hose through the crank cover..bugger

Took me 30 mins to think about using black leccy tape wrapped around it.

Really looking forward  to a ride again, been a long time.

Maybe late tomorrow, definately friday, just in time  for the weekend..

 Once she has settled down  I will report my findings .

Thanks to those who have assisted me, enlightened me, and prodded me....

Bob

No worries.

Every time I find an excuse to look at this output shaft again, like your thread, I find out a bit more about it.

Spose you haven't pushed the start button yet, good luck with that.

Back on the road today. 

Having found little wrong inside the motor, I was not holding out much hope of curing the high pitch

drone. Am not wasting anymore time or money on her, put up and shut I guess.

I need something  modern . Had K bikes for 9 years, not as long a some , but I would like to ride 

something different.

Have not had a new bike for a very long time, so time to get the cheque book out next year.

Would love to cure/find the reason but it rides ok and I have other things I should be doing.

Bob

Bumma. Maybe post a video where we can hear and see the screwdriver at different points. Maybe wishful thinking, but might be a simple fix.

What happens when you pull the clutch, and stuff  like that?

The noise is  at the bottom of the water pump cover, those bolts at 8 and 6 oclock , viewing from the front.

 Although quieter further away, as you suggest I will map  the noise .

How could the pump produce noise to this degree..

I did see wear on the pump offset dog drive where it sits on the output shaft

I thought the noise did reduce a lot for a while, but them came back, very frustrating.

If I listen to the gearbox, there is a slight noise which goes away when the clutch is pulled, but its very slight.

Bob

The cloud of disappointment has lifted via a good ride out, and a deep clean of the garage ...

I did read of a guy who removed his alternator and cured his noise. 

Mine was not noisy via the screwdriver, and has had new bearings but will remove it and try anyway. 

 Yes I could/should have done this before delving deep into the motor, but at least I know its all good inside.

I will try the test on a cold engine and then after a run.

Bob

OMFG!!!  112 posts.

Could the smiley faces be emitting the high pitch drone?

There we go.

taken 112 posts to get some humour....

smiley faces indeed .. highly likely considering what I didnt find..

High pitched whine ,  thought at first my ex wife was riding pillion .......

Given the numbers of people reading this post, and how close to War and Peace it is,  they need some light 

relief....I certainly do.. 

I need a Python esque outlook ,    no leaks, runs great , so always look on the bright side of life..

Bob

audibob wrote:Given the numbers of people reading this post, and how close to War and Peace it is,  they need some light relief....I certainly do.. 

It was easier to follow than War and Peace because this thread only had 0.01% of that novel's character count. It was more like Joyce's Ulysses. 

Laitch wrote:It was easier to follow than War and Peace because this thread only had 0.01% of that novel's character count.

I'm sure the character count will continue to grow to even more excruciating numbers.

Maybe a fresh start is needed.

There's a sound from the water pump.

Maybe it's the water pump. 

Hint,  it's actually a water/oil pump. 

Is there coolant in the oil, oil in the coolant, bubbles in the coolant? Stuff like that. If making a video, maybe show the levels in it. How much does it use? The coolant and oil levels in mine don't drop at all over 10,000km. That was so good I started thinking there must be something wrong.

daveyson wrote:Maybe a fresh start is needed.

Consider moving to Kazahkstan and riding an Africa Twin.

Water /oil pump good as it was before.

OMFG!!!  112 posts.   

Point-Seven-Five    just ahead of yours on your fuel cooler. heh heh
Excrutiating indeed..

I would love to ride an african Twin or even my K around Kazahkstan ....

How do you know the noise isn't coming from the water pump when you have a noise coming from the water pump?

Sometimes the seal can be noisy even though the bearing is good and there's no coolant loss. 

Sometimes adding a capfull of cutting oil in the coolant makes its way to the seal and stops the noise. It would be a quick easy test to do.

We might have Munchausen syndrome by proxy happening here.

Granted, it sounds weird, also we still haven't heard the sound yet. 

Something else weird, if I were in audibobs position and this quick fix worked, I wouldn't know whether to be happy for myself or upset with myself.

Still, nowhere near as weird as Munchausens by proxy.

The main thing is not to lose track of your gerbil.

Using Einsteins theory of relativity, that makes Munchausens look almost normal,  and the proxy bit is weird squared.

Removed the alternator and no change.

Listening to the three bottom most screws of the oil pump , the noise is very pronounced,  metallic, even at idle.

Difficult to replicate it via video. 

My pump was a used item from Motorworks 35000 miles ago, so is probably past is sell by date, but it does 

not leak.

Changing it is not an issue, but can these pumps really make this noise without falling to bits, or leaking.

Anyone in the uk  willing to lend me a known good one to try ? 

I have not stripped one, but I will if it proves to be the issue.

Bob

The easiest way may be to contact an exorcist to rid the bike of the smiley faces (demons)...least that takes them out of the equation. (If you can get rid of them that is) 

Quote, Bob "... can these pumps really make this noise without falling to bits or leaking."

Yes.

You have a quick easy test to try.
If it works, 
You won't know whether to laugh or cry.

I will ride her for a week and then strip the oil/water pump.

As the noise is so metallic, I need to look at it further.

I have not overhauled one of these units  before but there is plenty of good advice around.

The small driving gear offset dog is worn so will be replaced , hopefully the driven gear shaft is better.

If nothing changes, then as someone else wrote " I shall thrash it till its breaks, which it probably wont"

Bob

Hmmmmmm.

If you need some help to cry, 
Look at my first reply.

Took the bike out for a longer ride yesterday, parked her up, and found the black puddle of doom

under the gearbox....bugger...

Got home, locked her up and was not a happy bunny at all.

Switched on the news, and reality kicked back in......

My partner and I are self isolating due to our ages, so she works from home and I have the bike to keep 

me occupied.

Back to my K 


I think I may have not seated the shaft O ring properly.

Self doubt then turned its attention to the clutch, and its balance.

The TB,s are in perfect balance, and she pulls very well .

When I did some work previously, I used a  black marker on the clutch pack as I never saw any factory 

markings,  am not sure this was the original clutch pack anyway but perhaps I stuffed up again .

I have ordered a cheap wheel balancer so I can check .

This would explain the harshness .
 
I am not bothered about issues as long as they can be identified, whether its mechanical failure or me getting 

it wrong..as has happened.

Going one step further, and this is probably a load of cobblers, but could a clutch pack running well out of 

balance transmit an effect along  the output shaft to the water pump drive dog, producing the noise I hear 

from the pump cover.

My pump offset drive dog has wear on is driving surface, and does slop around in the output shaft a bit.

Could it also have an effect on the lash gear trying to keep the cush gear in place against the crank gear.

Doubting Thomases, sooth sayers , fortune tellers and those who read tea leaves are equally welcome on this one..


Bob

See post number 95.
Regards Martin.

Hi Martin,

the "o" ring seal was a bit fiddly to seat on the shaft , more so than the first time, probably me being careless.  

I didnt get the impression it was slightly under size, the last one came from Motorworks and that was okay.

I shall try and see how it is sitting before pulling the clutch basket, and whether it is the "o" ring or the 

main seal leaking.

Will be interesting to see if my clutch is balanced, or throwing a wobbler like me ..

Bob

Ay Bob,

I think I'm getting a feel of what cabin fever is like with this bloody corona virus. So I just finished reading the top notch links from volodor. The service bulletin states that the minimum action for this job is replacing the shim and diaphragm spring. It has come back to me that of these two, you only replaced the shim, plus a lot of other bits.

Although this might sound bad, if doing it again, you might just forget for a while, you're in lock down. Also, it would be twice as fast and easy the second time. That's assuming other causes are eliminated.

G'day Martin, that new avatar of yours is sure eye catching!!!!! Cheers Tom

Thanks it changes weekly. Zombie vote at the moment due to the fact that they are making us gather to vote.
Regards Martin.

Hi Daveyson,

" The shim and Diaphragm spring "  

If you mean the cush drive housing spring and thrust washer, then no ,  if you mean the lash gear , then yes.

A new spring and shim .

Unfortunately, Lock down means no engineering shops will be able to balance my clutch pack.

 My clutch basket has a yellow dot , plus a pair of green and white markings to choose from on 

the other bits , always nice to have a choice in life...

Whether a badly out of balance pack might have allowed my main seal to weep, maybe

lots of garden jobs mean the bike is not priority at the moment.

Rusty centre stand and worn bushes are being done at the moment,  and new steering bearings too, 

at least Motorworks uk are still open.

Bob

Yep, you replaced the shim, Goodo.

Going by the service bulletin, you should also replace the cush drive spring (diaphragm spring)

I'll say the white paint marks are original, and the green would be by someone else who has been in there.  If so the white and yellow marks would be about 120 degrees apart, while the green would most likely all be in line.

Mine had off white beige type lines with a yellow dot on the clutch basket. As Murphy's law would have it, I painted beige Lines, the same color and length as the original.

Time for an update.

After recovering from a bout of gloom,

Same noise, plus an oil leak,   I removed the clutch again and decided to determine whether an out of

 balance clutch pack was my original problem. 

I tried a cheap wheel balancer  and a cue ball without being able to rely on the results,  and all the engineering

 shops near me are closed.

Someone had marked it previously with green paint as well, but I decided to use the (hopefully) factory 

markings, with the two white and the carrier yellow marks, 120 degrees apart.

The original markings I made prior to removing the clutch the first time,  do not correspond 

to the factory markings, so either I marked it wrong or it had been out before I bought the bike.

Anyway, I went for a 15 mile test ride this morning and can now happily report that the noise and harshness

has gone.

The noise from the oil pump cover has lessened  but I guess thats normal.

Just the normal K bike whine to enjoy again..

At least I know more about the internal workings of the bike, plus I managed to repaint the centre stand 

as well. Just a pair of shitty fork legs to do now, whilst waiting until restrictions are lifted, and I can legally ride 

her again.

Bob

Good news!! 

Hi Bob,

What a funny story and outcome, it's hard not to smirk after all those twists and turns.  

Next time you do the splines, since you say there is still a bit of noise, you might get an improvement by swapping the orientation of the pressure plate and cover plate, while maintaining the 120 degree separation, especially if the other marks then line up.

You've earned yourself a cup of tea and scones now for sure.

" Houston"  we have found the problem. 

I have finally discovered  the reason for the noise at water pump and the intermediate housing adjacent to the 

sprag clutch, which I initially assumed was from the output shaft .

The harshness and high pitched noise could be heard from the front of the bike, even at speed and 

using ear plugs .

This was  a result of the alternator exerting pressure on the dog drive and its bearing , by

 not having sufficient running clearance . 

 I had swapped my original unit  for a k1100 unit. The cups were swapped and the height was set at 56.5mm

as per a thread I had seen on the forum.

I did some measurements and found there was 55 mm from the alternator fixing shoulder to the inner 

edge of the triangulated dog drive plate. 

I used 2mm washers behind the securing bolts , and the noise has completely gone as has the harshness.

The water/oil pump cover now emits only the noise i would expect, certainly no heavy clanging, and  the 

sprag clutch area on the intermediate housing is quiet.

The difference is amazing. 
 
A lot  of work was not necessary, but in the end she has a new clutch plate, rear seal.

O joy....I have a quiet bike again. 

On a different note about noise, if you use  flip up helmet and suffer wind noise from the visor pivot area,

use a round adhesive patch like the ones you get with some intercom kits, and stick one over the pivot.

The noise reduction is dramatic.

Bob

Good to hear. 

Cheers Bob. You've earned yourself a wee dram or summat like that. And say g'day to the wife and kids for me while your at it. This threads been a funny up and down ride.