dallasf wrote:. . . just the flywheel o-ring.

Where did you come up with that nomenclature? It's an output shaft o-ring. Motorworks calls it an output shaft to clutch carrier o-ring.

A few conclusions can be had from Matt's journey.https://www.k100-forum.com/t14681-se-qld-brick-workshop#172130 Matt may remember where he purchased the final seal.
Regards Martin.

Thanks ill have a sticky.

Looks like one of those jobs you don't want to repeat.

Get a Viton o-ring at an industrial bearing house. The size is 19mmx4mm.

Goodo, thanks again.

Point-Seven-five wrote:Get a Viton o-ring at an industrial bearing house.  The size is 19mmx4mm.

I thought mine was a bit bigger diameter than that.

But ..... that's going back to 2014...........

Laitch wrote:

dallasf wrote:. . . just the flywheel o-ring.

Where did you come up with that nomenclature? It's an output shaft o-ring. Motorworks calls it an output shaft to clutch carrier o-ring.

One of the supplies is calling it a flywheel O ring, i do remember that.

I forgot to reply to your O-ring installing question. Yes push it all the way back to reduce the chance of some binding happening as you tighten the nut. A tiny bit of grease or oil might also help to achieve an even seal.

Laitch wrote:

dallasf wrote:. . . just the flywheel o-ring.

Where did you come up with that nomenclature? It's an output shaft o-ring. Motorworks calls it an output shaft to clutch carrier o-ring.

Woops, no idea, where I pulled that from, I swear I saw it somewhere. I'm not going crazy.

Yes, output shaft o-ring. ENA60456 from motorworks.

ok, I am not going to rush through this and will probably ask a few questions when something doesn't feel/look right. I really do NOT want to do this again for some time.


Here are the o-ring measurements:

The outside diameter is about 25mm to the inside diameter of 20mm

dallasf wrote:

Laitch wrote:

dallasf wrote:. . . just the flywheel o-ring.

Where did you come up with that nomenclature? It's an output shaft o-ring. Motorworks calls it an output shaft to clutch carrier o-ring.

Woops, no idea, where I pulled that from, I swear I saw it somewhere. I'm not going crazy.

Yes, output shaft o-ring. ENA60456 from motorworks.

Motobins call it a flywheel o ring
See engine parts/gaskets and seals/individual gaskets and seals/flywheel o ring
I agree that the size is 19mmx4mm

Packo wrote:

dallasf wrote:

Laitch wrote:
Where did you come up with that nomenclature? It's an output shaft o-ring. Motorworks calls it an output shaft to clutch carrier o-ring.

Woops, no idea, where I pulled that from, I swear I saw it somewhere. I'm not going crazy.

Yes, output shaft o-ring. ENA60456 from motorworks.

Motobins call it a flywheel o ring
See engine parts/gaskets and seals/individual gaskets and seals/flywheel o ring

Cheers, was one of those.

Here is the o-ring placed into the shaft with a flat head screwdriver. (Small bits of white staburags grease on it). It was to push over the threads and then the next smooth part of the shaft, however had to really push it in there for it to fit.





Is it normal to have such a large amount of space between the thread and the rear (red line), where the o-ring is? It feels like the o-ring could come out easily, even though I really pushed it in there.




Below is from the manual and you can see a lot less room in comparison to mine and the o-ring looks much larger.




Should I fill it up with oil and see if it leaks? Once I have torqued the nut to 140nm

You should have a compression ring to install before the clutch nut which puts a bit of compression on the O-ring when the clutch nut is torqued up.

Like this drawing shows.

daveyson wrote:You should have a compression ring to install before the clutch nut which puts a bit of compression on the O-ring when the clutch nut is torqued up.

Like this drawing shows.

Yep sure do. That was there before hand as well. Do you think I should torque it up and fill with oil?

It's looking a bit loosy to me. Would you call it 19mm? Would it be 4mm diameter? I'll call it higher than the oil level, I'd say it wouldn't leak until the engine is running.

Another go at posting the drawing.

Edit: maybe look at the thread that Martin linked to.

Thanks for the pic. Makes sense.

I guess the only thing I can do is find a fatter o-ring around the same size?

Or put two in! Looks like I could fit three!

dallasf wrote:

• Here is the o-ring placed into the shaft with a flat head screwdriver.
  
• (Small bits of white staburags grease on it)
  
• Is it normal to have such a large amount of space between the thread and the rear (red line), where the o-ring is? It feels like the o-ring could come out easily, even though I really pushed it in there. Below is from the manual and you can see a lot less room in comparison to mine and the o-ring looks much larger. 
  
• Should I fill it up with oil and see if it leaks? Once I have torqued the nut to 140nm
  

• Pushing with force on an o-ring with an edged tool like a screwdriver is liable to damage it.
  
• Staburags is a paste designed to bond its components with metal parts for the purposes of inhibiting contact wear.
  
• A slight application of engine oil on the output shaft or o-ring might have been useful but given the circumstances, your engine's shaft is slick enough.
  
• There is a lot less room between the threads and o-ring on that shaft in the photo because the assembler will use the rotation of the clutch nut on the compression ring to evenly push the o-ring down the shaft to seat it then compress it appropriately.
  

If this were my project, I'd remove that o-ring and replace it with one I hadn't been stabbing, but you've gotten plenty of practice coupling and decoupling the transmission from the engine so, flip a coin. One thing I would not do is test it for leaks by idling the engine because my experience has been that damaged seals in general might work when an engine is idling but will fail during the heat and pressure developed when an engine is operating under load. I try to have the right parts and technique from the get-go and not extemporize. Although many consider failing a good way to learn—I've had a share of it—learning from others' mistakes and others' knowledge is less costly.

Laitch wrote:

dallasf wrote:

• Here is the o-ring placed into the shaft with a flat head screwdriver.
  
• (Small bits of white staburags grease on it)
  
• Is it normal to have such a large amount of space between the thread and the rear (red line), where the o-ring is? It feels like the o-ring could come out easily, even though I really pushed it in there. Below is from the manual and you can see a lot less room in comparison to mine and the o-ring looks much larger. 
  
• Should I fill it up with oil and see if it leaks? Once I have torqued the nut to 140nm
  

• Pushing with force on an o-ring with an edged tool like a screwdriver is liable to damage it.
  
• Staburags is a paste designed to bond its components with metal parts for the purposes of inhibiting contact wear.
  
• A slight application of engine oil on the output shaft or o-ring might have been useful but given the circumstances, your engine's shaft is slick enough.
  
• There is a lot less room between the threads and o-ring on that shaft in the photo because the assembler will use the rotation of the clutch nut on the compression ring to evenly push the o-ring down the shaft to seat it then compress it appropriately.
  

If this were my project, I'd remove that o-ring and replace it with one I hadn't been stabbing, but you've gotten plenty of practice coupling and decoupling the transmission from the engine so, flip a coin. One thing I would not do is test it for leaks by idling the engine because my experience has been that damaged seals in general might work when an engine is idling but will fail during the heat and pressure developed when an engine is operating under load. I try to have the right parts and technique from the get-go and not extemporize. Although many consider failing a good way to learn—I've had a share of it—learning from others' mistakes and others' knowledge is less costly.

Hey,

Thanks for the info. I have been very very gentle with the o-ring. I understand it's importance and delicately pushed it into its place. I was not forceful in preparing it for its job. I'm hoping once it's torqued and put back to together the leak will stop. I'll read the post above about other people's experience when the o-ring fails.

Appreciate the help once again.

dallasf wrote:Thanks for the info. I have been very very gentle with the o-ring. I understand it's importance and delicately pushed it into its place. I was not forceful in preparing it for its job.

No thanks necessary; I'm trying to keep my English-language composition skills lubricated.

Your understanding of importance needs work. What you write in one place, dallas, contradicts with what you write in another. In a previous post I quoted, you wrote "however had to really push it in there for it to fit." A statement like that does not imply the gentleness of kitten-stroking that you now assert was used.  

Next time you want to push an o-ring, use a wooden dowel or a blunt tool of another variety. You don't need one for this.

Your understanding of importance needs work. What you write in one place, dallas, contradicts with what you write in another. In a previous post I quoted, you wrote "however had to really push it in there for it to fit." A statement like that does not imply the gentleness of kitten-stroking that you now assert.

I understand brute force on a seal would break it, I hope I haven't come across that much of an idiot.

I was trying to imply that it needed help going into its furthest spot, as it wasn't easy to do. The diameter of the o-ring didn't feel like it was the right size as it required that extra push with a blunt screwdriver.

I was providing the right amount of information in case something didn't sound right in my application.

dallasf wrote:ok, I am not going to rush through this and will probably ask a few questions when something doesn't feel/look right. I really do NOT want to do this again for some time.


Here are the o-ring measurements:

The outside diameter is about 25mm to the inside diameter of 20mm

That doesn't sound like the correct dimensions for the o-ring. It should have an inside diameter of 19mm and an outside diameter of 27mm. The ring itself should be 4mm. If the dimensions are as you say, I can see why you have a leak.

If it's the right size it should slide over the output shaft with a little drag and then be a snug fit into the case. I use a popsickle stick to push it in all the way.

dallasf wrote:I understand brute force on a seal would break it, I hope I haven't come across that much of an idiot.
I was trying to imply that it needed help going into its furthest spot, as it wasn't easy to do. 
I was providing the right amount of information in case something didn't sound right in my application.

He that lives upon hope will die fasting.  Benjamin Franklin

Something doesn't sound right in your application.

You're the only one mentioning brute force. Where i live, forceful and gentle are opposites. This particular o-ring doesn't need the help of being poked by a popsicle stick, dowel, baby unicorn horn or blunt screwdriver to seat it. The compression ring acts as an arbor to mount it. Just putting it on a smooth shaft and letting the compression ring push it into its seat when the clutch nut is tightened is the simple way to do this, because a correctly-sized o-ring will follow the shaft right into its seat then the compression ring will expand it. If a correctly-sized o-ring hasn't been used, that's a situation the raises the question, "Why not?", followed by a calendar check for a replacement date and time.

For the timorous wrencher though, the clutch nut and compression ring can be backed out to view the o-ring seating result before tightening the nut to its first full torque value but wondering, hoping and dawdling won't get the job done. When extraneous steps are added to a procedure, chances of its failure can increase.

I am at a loss then.

I have ordered two o-rings both from two different places, they are both the same size. I can only assume that the o-ring is right.

Maybe a video of me placing the o-ring in, would help?

Point-Seven-five wrote:That doesn't sound like the correct dimensions for the o-ring.  It should have an inside diameter of 19mm and an outside diameter of 27mm.   The ring itself should be 4mm.  If the dimensions are as you say, I can see why you have a leak.

If it's the right size it should slide over the output shaft with a little drag and then be a snug fit into the case.  I use a popsickle stick to push it in all the way.

The inside diameter would be 19mm and 4mm thickness. It is no way 27mm outside diameter.

I'll make a video to show everyone.

dallasf wrote:The inside diameter would be 19mm and 4mm thickness. It is no way 27mm outside diameter.
I'll make a video to show everyone.

Why a video? Photo a vernier caliper scale on it in a couple of places. There are two 4mm thicknesses. That adds up to 27mm. I'm seeing a pattern here.

Laitch wrote:Why a video? Photo a vernier caliper scale on it in a couple of places. There are two 4mm thicknesses. That adds up to 27mm. I'm seeing a pattern here.

I don't have a set of vernier calipers. In post 123 you can see the measurements via a measuring tape, which shows that it's nowhere near 27mm.

A video would show you the o-ring being placed onto the shaft. I can then show you how it's placed further into the shaft.

What sort of pattern are you referring to?

dallasf wrote:it's nowhere near 27mm. 
What sort of pattern are you referring to?

It's 25mm, that's near; it just doesn't seem near enough.   
If the o-ring doesn't fit as Point-Seven-five described, it probably isn't going to work for you. The video does sound suspenseful though. 

The pattern I'm seeing is that straight-forward procedures tend to bog down in your neighborhood, but video production is thriving. I buy seals, o-rings and most everything else for my Brick from MAX BMW in New Hampshire and haven't ever had a misfit part from them.

Thanks Laitch. I'll need to find an o-ring outside my current providers.

I'll go to the auto store, no BMW dealers around my area.

The correct O-ring is 19mm internal and 4mm thickness which makes it 27mm external. When inserted as .75 said slight drag on the threaded section but easy insertion. A Viton O-ring from Bearing Service and the seal from the same place. Seal is 80mm x 50mm x 8mm in Viton. The OEM seal is 10mm thickness but I have used the 8mm Viton without any problems many times. Insert the seal so it is flush with the surface. Check the section of the shaft the seal runs on by running your finger nail across the surface and if any groove is felt then replace. If you do need a new clutch carrier PM me as I have one here that is good. FYI Viton is the material the seal is made from and is suited to a higher operating temperature than the black Nitrile O-rings that are OEM. If the numptie at Bearing Service says you don't need Viton tell him it is a known issue and that usually shuts them up.  Statewide Bearings also stock the seals and O-rings.

Your first hunch was right that it's a loose fit. I'm trying hard to agree with you that it's 19mm internal and the cross section diameter is 4mm, but that the outside diameter is no way 27mm. But it's not going to be easy. I'll bet you a profiterole (or 24 party pies)  that 19+4+4=27.

Try also CBC bearings on Cooper St. That's a professional outfit near to you, you'll get the right one first time, but measure it anyway. Or the bike wreckers at Coburg.

Thanks guys. I'll go source an o-ring locally and double check the dimensions.

Exciting news guys. Second build went well and I have all gears running smoothly.

I replaced the o-ring with a new one with the correct dimensions and there has been lo leaks either.

Just wanted to thank everyone for your help and getting me on the road.

For anyone reading this, when adding the o-ring just place it over the threads towards the back, no need to push it any further through.

Laitch wrote:

Good news though.

dallasf wrote:Just wanted to thank everyone for your help and getting me on the road.

Are you really riding it now, or is that an idiom?

Laitch wrote:

dallasf wrote:Just wanted to thank everyone for your help and getting me on the road.

Are you really riding it now, or is that an idiom?

I'm riding mate, engine purring too.

The only problem now is oil leaking from a screw hole from the sump. Busted screw inside. Don't ask.

dallasf wrote:Don't ask.

Yeah. Sure. Which screw hole?

Laitch wrote:

dallasf wrote:Don't ask.

Yeah. Sure. Which screw hole?

The SUMP case has 12 or so screws. When I bought the bike I was unaware of a broken bolt in the SUMP case (plus many more in other areas, which I have fixed). The specific screw hole is leaking oil and I have been unable to penetrate the broken bolt with an array of drill bits. Trust me, its right up there, snapped half way!

I am taking it to the mechanic as I have given up.

dallasf wrote:The specific screw hole is leaking oil  Trust me, its right up there, snapped half way!

Which specific screw hole? I have trust issues, beginning when you wrote up there rather than in there.

Laitch wrote:

dallasf wrote:The specific screw hole is leaking oil  Trust me, its right up there, snapped half way!

Which specific screw hole? I have trust issues, beginning when you wrote up there rather than in there.

That's not a grammatical error, that's Australian slang. Two different things.

dallasf. wrote:That's not a grammatical error, that's Australian slang. Two different things.

So up and in are the same directions in Australia? Which two things are different?

Laitch wrote:

dallasf. wrote:That's not a grammatical error, that's Australian slang. Two different things.

So up and in are the same directions in Australia? Which two things are different?

You got it wrong again. It's slang, nothing to do with direction.

Dallas post a pic of the hole, is it directly below the oil/water pump, if it is then you have oil pump trouble.