The almost new battery on my 1991 K75S wwent flat due to my inadvertently leaving the ignition on. I re-charged it, switched on the ignition and the ABS warning light and hazard lights flashed but the starter wouldn't turn (although the fuel pump did it thing).   After 24– 25 seconds everything stopped flashing, but it still wouldn't start and when I then turned the ignition off and on, it all started over again.

I tried re-setting the ABS several times using the trick suggested on the forum (grounded wire in the central terminal of the diagnostic socket), but that didn't work, so I'm at a loss and very frustrated that I can't go riding in this lovely weather – any suggestions short of removing the ABS altogether which I'm loathe to do? 

(BTW, the bike was fitted with an aftermarket anti-theft system which has caused problems in the past, but which I partially disconnected).

If you haven't charged it with a slow charger, try that. It doesn't matter how new the battery was; it might have failed anyway and needs to be replaced.

Laitch wrote:If you haven't charged it with a slow charger, try that. It doesn't matter how new the battery was; it might have failed anyway and needs to be replaced.

That sounds very strange, Laitch. I charged it overnight at the 'Normal' rate, and the headlight(s) glow brightly and as I've explained the hazards flash strongly along with the ABS lamp, so I assume it is fully charged.   And why would it fail? Surely nothing to do with the ABS circuitry? 

markysimon wrote:. . .  I assume it is fully charged. 

Have the battery tested.

Laitch wrote:

markysimon wrote:. . .  I assume it is fully charged. 

Have the battery tested.

Well yes, I can do that but surely that doesn't explain why the ABS system is playing up? But before I have to travel 30 miles to get it tested (I live in the backwoods), I'll try jump starting it with a battery from one of my other bikes! 

markysimon wrote:Well yes, I can do that but surely that doesn't explain why the ABS system is playing up?

The ABS system will play up if the battery is insufficiently charged.

The ABS will get a low voltage fault if you try to start with a weak battery.  If the battery is bad enough, just turning it on will give you a low voltage fault.  I had a low voltage fault last year and it was a b!tch to clear.

If you partially removed the alarm, what did you leave?  Maybe you should finish the removal and put the wiring back to original without the alarm.  I vaguely recall that part of the alarm system was something that locked out starter operation.  I never owned a bike with an alarm, so I could be wrong, but it is something to look into.

Have you ever cleaned the ignition switch?  That is another source for the starter problems you are having, especially if they are intermittent.

http://www.eilenberger.net/K75S/IgnitionSwitch/

I have had similar issues with this switch on two out of three K bikes, and others here have had problems as well.  The design of the switch contacts leaves a lot to be desired.

Point-Seven-five wrote:The ABS will get a low voltage fault if you try to start with a weak battery.  If the battery is bad enough, just turning it on will give you a low voltage fault.  I had a low voltage fault last year and it was a b!tch to clear.

If you partially removed the alarm, what did you leave?  Maybe you should finish the removal and put the wiring back to original without the alarm.  I vaguely recall that part of the alarm system was something that locked out starter operation.  I never owned a bike with an alarm, so I could be wrong, but it is something to look into.

Thanks 1.75 and Laitch (again). Some brief answers:

I'm shortly going back to my garage and will try jumping starting it with a battery from my Honda, then if that fails will remove it and take it for testing – a real pain 'cause of the distance.

I tried to remove the complete alarm system but the bike wouldn't start at all after I did that, so I reconnected it (the main unit, which includes an immobiliser) but disconnected the wires to the siren which was sounding whenever I turned the ignition on) and all was well, i.e. it started and ran fine for a few weeks. I am not competent to return the wiring to its pre-alarmed state I'm afraid.

I hadn't considered that the whole thing might be a switch issue, but will look into that if all else fails.

Finally, what really irks me is that the battery is less than four months old, and high-quality!

markysimon wrote:I'm shortly going back to my garage and will try jumping starting it with a battery from my Honda, then if that fails will remove it and take it for testing – a real pain 'cause of the distance.
Finally, what really irks me is that the battery is less than four months old, and high-quality!

I realize what you're up against. I watched Hinterland. Be careful.

How far are you from the village—30 miles?

You might jump start the bike but that won't solve the underlying condition of a faulty battery or a battery subject to continuous discharging by faulty alarm system wiring.

Is the starter relay getting closed when you hit the start button?  I would concentrate on getting the starter to run before going any further.  As long as the battery shows around 12.8v when the bike is turned on it should be okay to figure out the starter problem.

It wouldn't be a bad idea to spend some time on the ignition switch and cleaning all the bike's ground points.  Pulling the starter out and cleaning the brushes and commutator wouldn't be a bad idea either.

Point-Seven-five wrote:Is the starter relay getting closed when you hit the start button?  I would concentrate on getting the starter to run before going any further.  As long as the battery shows around 12.8v when the bike is turned on it should be okay to figure out the starter problem.

It wouldn't be a bad idea to spend some time on the ignition switch and cleaning all the bike's ground points.  Pulling the starter out and cleaning the brushes and commutator wouldn't be a bad idea either.

I'd like to try and avoid anything as radical as removing and taking the starter motor apart, but I will take a look at the ignition switch.

I just got back from having the battery tested – it was showing 11.8V but I've put it back on charge and will try again in the morning. 

Your battery is as dead as a Parrot at 11.8 volts.  After charging it needs to be 12.8 to 13.4 volts to be fully charged.  It should hold that voltage for at least a week.  This is why there are battery warranties. 

Right now, I'm thinking your battery is gone, but if you try to charge it, use a charger that puts out 6 amps to 10 amps.  Anything less or more either won't charge it fully or overheat it and boil off the electrolyte.

Point-Seven-five wrote:Your battery is as dead as a Parrot at 11.8 volts.  After charging it needs to be 12.8 to 13.4 volts to be fully charged.  It should hold that voltage for at least a week.  This is why there are battery warranties. 

Right now, I'm thinking your battery is gone, but if you try to charge it, use a charger that puts out 6 amps to 10 amps.  Anything less or more either won't charge it fully or overheat it and boil off the electrolyte.

Yes, after a full night's charge (at 6amps) the battery does appear to be unserviceable, but I can't understand why as it's so new. Wrestling with the Warranty will be a pain and take ages so in the meantime I suppose I'll have to buy another and start all over again. Grrrrrr.

markysimon wrote:. . . the battery does appear to be unserviceable, but I can't understand why as it's so new.

Maybe it's because we have all fallen from the garden and none is without sin, or maybe it's because the battery had a manufacturing defect caused by a hangover, or maybe it's because when a typical motorcycle battery—new or used—is completely discharged by leaving the ignition key turned on for hours, it can be ruined. Its having current drained by defective wiring to a defunct alarm system wouldn't help matters. At least you aren't disassembling the starter right now or standing among a pile of ABS parts that should be still on the moto.  

What type, model and manufacture of battery is it?

A few weeks ago I got a brand new battery that was dead on arrival, they are made cheap and can drop the bundle at any time. You just gotta trust that the warranty will cover you.

Did you get your battery at a shop or online?  Most shops will exchange a battery on warranty over the counter.  The better online dealers will ship a replacement upon payment for the replacement, and refund that when the old arrives and is confirmed bad.  Either way, it shouldn't take more than a week to get a new one.  Over the years, I have seen a few bad batteries, and warranty replacement has always been fairly easy.

As Laitch mentioned, at least you haven't ripped the rest of the bike apart yet.  While you wait for a replacement it would be very prudent to remove the starter and clean the brushes as well as cleaning all the bike's ground connections.  With the battery out, the starter is very easy to get at.  The whole job shouldn't take more than an hour.

Point-Seven-five wrote:Did you get your battery at a shop or online?  Most shops will exchange a battery on warranty over the counter.  The better online dealers will ship a replacement upon payment for the replacement, and refund that when the old arrives and is confirmed bad.  Either way, it shouldn't take more than a week to get a new one.  Over the years, I have seen a few bad batteries, and warranty replacement has always been fairly easy.

As Laitch mentioned, at least you haven't ripped the rest of the bike apart yet.  While you wait for a replacement it would be very prudent to remove the starter and clean the brushes as well as cleaning all the bike's ground connections.  With the battery out, the starter is very easy to get at.  The whole job shouldn't take more than an hour.

I seem to have no choice but to buy a new battery whilst claiming against the warranty on the (not-so) old one – which was bought from a trusted dealer in London, 160 miles from where I live!   I sort of take Laitch's point about draining the battery by leaving the ignition switch on overnight, but that doesn't quite explain why it wouldn't jump-start... 

And I'm loathe to start taking the starter motor apart for reason mentioned earlier.

Thanks for all your input though chaps, ribald and otherwise 

Laitch wrote:

markysimon wrote:. . . the battery does appear to be unserviceable, but I can't understand why as it's so new.

Maybe it's because we have all fallen from the garden and none is without sin, or maybe it's because the battery had a manufacturing defect caused by a hangover, or maybe it's because when a typical motorcycle battery—new or used—is completely discharged by leaving the ignition key turned on for hours, it can be ruined. Its having current drained by defective wiring to a defunct alarm system wouldn't help matters. At least you aren't disassembling the starter right now or standing among a pile of ABS parts that should be still on the moto.  

What type, model and manufacture of battery is it?

Hello again, I forgot to answer your question last time: it's a Unibat C60 N24AL, as specified for the K75 and indeed K100

I seem to have missed your reason for not servicing the starter.  The brushes and commutator are critical parts of the ground circuits and making things work properly.  If you have the battery out already, all you need is an Allen Wrench, 10mm spanner, a Phillips screwdriver and 10 minutes to get the starter out and disassemble it.  From there it takes another 15-20 minutes to clean the commutator, check the brush length and put it all back together on the engine.

The procedure is in the shop manuals, and we can help you with it.  Many of us have been in there on our bikes.

The grounds, ignition switch, and the starter brushes are the source of a lot of strange electrical whack.  Sooner or later you will need to service them on these old machines.  Personally, if you aren't willing to address these points, it's hard for me to get interested in helping you.

Contact the people you purchased it from and find out if there is a shop near you that will do the warranty for you. In Australia any shop that sells the brand will do a warranty claim.

markysimon wrote: I sort of take Laitch's point about draining the battery by leaving the ignition switch on overnight, but that doesn't quite explain why it wouldn't jump-start... 

If you attached jumper cables to your bike's battery and expected the bike to light up as soon as you did that, I'm not surprised you were disappointed. Sometimes a discharged battery must be charged by the functioning one for a few minutes before starting will succeed. Your faulty battery probably didn't offer much capacity for that.

Anyway, the past is a bucket of ashes.

Laitch wrote:

markysimon wrote: I sort of take Laitch's point about draining the battery by leaving the ignition switch on overnight, but that doesn't quite explain why it wouldn't jump-start... 

If you attached jumper cables to your bike's battery and expected the bike to light up as soon as you did that, I'm not surprised you were disappointed. Sometimes a discharged battery must be charged by the functioning one for a few minutes before starting will succeed. Your faulty battery probably didn't offer much capacity for that.

Anyway, the past is a bucket of ashes.  

I like your homily about past history and may well pinch it for my next Bike column if that's okay, Laitch.

As for taking the starter motor out and apart, I do have the workshop manual but experience with two starter motors on (Honda) re-builds last year rather puts me off, as did taking apart the K75 cooling system earlier this year which revealed all manner of corroded fixings that cost much time, sweat and money to put right. (The bike had been stored and not run for several years before I bought it, hence the 'new' battery. In the end it was a U/S fan motor auguring an costly replacement).

As for the battery itself, well I'll be phoning the supplier in the morning to see what he has to say...

markysimon wrote: I like your homily about past history and may well pinch it for my next Bike column if that's okay, Laitch.

I pinched it from Carl Sandburg so it's up for grabs.

Point-Seven-five wrote:The procedure is in the shop manuals, and we can help you with it.  Many of us have been in there on our bikes.

There is a How-to in in this forum.

https://www.k100-forum.com/t2342-starter-motor-cleaning-tutorial

robmack wrote:

Point-Seven-five wrote:The procedure is in the shop manuals, and we can help you with it.  Many of us have been in there on our bikes.

There is a How-to in in this forum.

https://www.k100-forum.com/t2342-starter-motor-cleaning-tutorial

That's great. Just had a look and it appears easier than I imagined – easier that on the starters fitted to my Hondas, anyway!   

Will have a go this week whilst I'm waiting for a new battery. I'm going for an Exide 51913 gel, BTW, which may be unfamiliar to all you overseas guys, but any thoughts on gel batteries generally?

robmack wrote:

Point-Seven-five wrote:The procedure is in the shop manuals, and we can help you with it.  Many of us have been in there on our bikes.

There is a How-to in in this forum.

https://www.k100-forum.com/t2342-starter-motor-cleaning-tutorial

Hello again all,

Well I followed your excellent tutorial and it was all fine until I tried jiggling and pulling back the starter, which just would NOT move backwards. It's perhaps just as well as I don't have and can't buy contact cleaner anywhere nearby so would have to get it online. 

And after trickle charging again overnight, the existing battery is now at 12.4 volts and holding its charge!!! 

You need to be a bit more authoritative with extracting the starter. It's being held in place with an internal O-ring. Maybe prying with a flat-blade screwdriver will help break the seal between the neck of the starter and the O-ring. I've also found the need to use a dead-blow hammer against the starter body while yanking hard to pull the starter out is required in some cases.

Yes, I thought about the O-ring but there's no (obvious) way to apply leverage that doesn't involve using the coils as a pivot point, which isn't a good idea! I might go back and try the hammer trick but there's precious little room for manouvre down there!

A length of wood and a BFH to crack it off the engine, then a squirt of WD40 or similar into the crack. The last one I pulled was a real bitch and proved to have a nasty corrosion ring around the back of the rubber seal.

Dai wrote:A length of wood and a BFH to crack it off the engine, then a squirt of WD40 or similar into the crack. The last one I pulled was a real bitch and proved to have a nasty corrosion ring around the back of the rubber seal.

 Ah, I'll try that and see if its works, Dai. Nothing like a bit of brute force now and again! 

As it happens, I'll be down in Dolyhir on Friday 3rd August. I'm quite happy to pull a minor diversion if you think it will help.

Dai wrote:As it happens, I'll be down in Dolyhir on Friday 3rd August. I'm quite happy to pull a minor diversion if you think it will help.

Very kind of you to offer Dai, but I'm hoping that it'll all be sorted by then. 

Will keep you posted though, obviously!

Cheers – Mark W

To remove a stubborn starter make a double loop out of para cord or similar. Push the loops under and behind the two mounts. Insert a screwdriver into the loops find a strong point to lever off and lever off while wriggling. Grease ( Kopper Kote)around the mating surfaces on assembly.
Regards Martin.

MartinW wrote:To remove a stubborn starter make a double loop out of para cord or similar. Push the loops under and behind the two mounts. Insert a screwdriver into the loops find a strong point to lever off and lever off while wriggling. Grease ( Kopper Kote)around the mating surfaces on assembly.
Regards Martin.

Problem finally solved thanks to Chris Whitton who rode down from Barnsley on his wonderful if extraordinary Puch MadAss-inspired K75S – what a star! He identified the source of the alarm's wiring problem and simply removed the unit wholesale which I hadn't dared attempt.   

The battery is holding its (re-)charge at 12.4 – 12.6volts and the starter motor is AOK. Bike now starts and runs fine. Hurrah ! 

Thanks for all your input.

He just wanted to see all the pretty countryside around Presteigne. And Hergest Ridge. Gotta see Hergest Ridge.

Dai wrote:He just wanted to see all the pretty countryside around Presteigne. And Hergest Ridge. Gotta see Hergest Ridge.

Probably so, Dai, but he also wanted to get a missing back issue of my new wee magazine, see www.classicmotoringreview.uk   and here's a pic of his fabulous K75S – takes a real man to ride 150 miles on that seat! 

markysimon wrote:

Dai wrote:He just wanted to see all the pretty countryside around Presteigne. And Hergest Ridge. Gotta see Hergest Ridge.

Probably so, Dai, but he also wanted to get a missing back issue of my new wee magazine, see www.classicmotoringreview.uk   and here's a pic of his fabulous K75S – takes a real man to ride 150 miles on that seat! 

 Ooops – pic doesn't seem to have uploaded... but then we're all prisoners of technology...

markysimon wrote: Ooops – pic doesn't seem to have uploaded... but then we're all prisoners of technology...

You could always contact Mikki and ask her for instruction about how to post photos here, and links too.

Laitch wrote:

markysimon wrote: Ooops – pic doesn't seem to have uploaded... but then we're all prisoners of technology...

You could always contact Mikki and ask her for instruction about how to post photos here, and links too.

Mikki ?

BTW, I tried clicking on icons in the toolbar and one, identified as 'Host an image', appeared to offer an image uploading facility, but eventually took me to a third party supplier who demanded I register with them, at which point I lost the will to live    Most other fora have much simpler methods, but c'est la vie.

check here

https://www.k100-forum.com/t998-posting-pictures-and-movies

markysimon wrote:Mikki ?
Most other fora have much simpler methods, but c'est la vie.

Yeah, Mikki—the Mikki that is supposedly a regular illustrator with your automotive journal Classic Motoring Review and a contributing designer to a computing magazine. I figured you and she would be on good terms. Maybe not.  I found her name in the hyperlink you almost supplied.

Anyway, put your cursor in your post where you want an image. Click on the other image icon in the menu. When its menu appears , find the image in the vast array on your computer, click select image, then click send all, then click insert all. Bingo. That's the basic way that worked for me.

Laitch wrote:

markysimon wrote:Mikki ?
Most other fora have much simpler methods, but c'est la vie.

Yeah, Mikki—the Mikki that is supposedly a regular illustrator with your automotive journal Classic Motoring Review and a contributing designer to a computing magazine. I figured you and she would be on good terms. Maybe not.  I found her name in the hyperlink you almost supplied.

Anyway, put your cursor in your post where you want an image. Click on the other image icon in the menu. When its menu appears , find the image in the vast array on your computer, click select image, then click send all, then click insert all. Bingo. That's the basic way that worked for me.

Ah, Mikki Rain, a/k/a Michele Mortimer, a/k/a my ex-girlfriend, work colleague and narrowboat captain. We are on v. good terms and yes, she does illustrate for Classic Motoring Review, but I had no idea she was a Flying Brick Fan – still she always did keep a good secret!

In the meantime I shall follow your and/or Charlie 99's advice... for which thanks are due.

[quote="markysimon"][quote="Laitch"]

markysimon wrote:Mikki ?
but I had no idea she was a Flying Brick Fan

Neither did I. I just figured she could find her way around a computer. Now that it has been revealed she's your ex, I understand the memory lapse.

Laitch wrote:

markysimon wrote:

Laitch wrote:
Neither did I. I just figured she could find her way around a computer. Now that it has been revealed she's your ex, I understand the memory lapse.

Actually not, or not much anyway. She still uses pen'n'ink for the illustrations and was one of the last people in the UK to own and working process camera for magazine layouts etc. And she has a 50 year-old Morris Minor Traveller as her daily driver, as featured in the second issue of www.classicmotoringreview.uk !