A number of questions seeking a number of answers

robmack

robmack

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Yes, it would. Have a large bucket to catch the fuel and fire extinguisher handy.

Holister

Holister

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Also make sure the injectors are properly secured in the fuel rail with the clips

Point-Seven-five

Point-Seven-five

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It might be a bit safer to test the rail and the injectors by connecting compressed air at 15psi to the fuel supply line. Make sure the line and rail have been drained of fuel first.

Testing with fuel is asking for an explosion. After all, the purpose of the injectors is to provide an explosive fuel air mixture.

robmack

robmack

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How are you going to detect and observe spray pattern anomalies by using compressed air?

Point-Seven-five

Point-Seven-five

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I'm not looking for anomalies. All I want to do is confirm that I am getting flow from the tank to the injector tip without blowing up the garage. As long as something is coming through the injector, I know that the system is functioning mechanically. Then I can move on to doing things with injector cleaner to get the spray patterns cleaned up.

The last thing I want to do with a possibly malfunctioning injection system is have it spraying gasoline around my shop.

Point-Seven-five

Point-Seven-five

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I have had the opportunity to witness a gasoline vapor explosion on a boat from the distance of 100 yards. Definitely something I wouldn't want to get closer to.

JayceLane

JayceLane

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For what is worth. I acquired a K100RT on Sunday, drove to work yesterday and could not for the live of me get her started when I wanted to get home. Sounded like your problem, in that she almost takes.....but nothing.

So I looked back at what had changed over the day. Then it dawned on me, because I don't know the bike, I decided to check each of the fuses at lunch time. I had pulled them out and flipped them over, thinking this may get rid of some grime and allow for better contact. So last night, after trying unsuccessfully to start her, I went back to the fuses, pulled them out and flipped them back as I had found them, made sure that they were properly secured, pushed on the housing in a little bit and Presto.... she fired as if nothing had ever happened.

I know the solution to my problem may be a little arb, but when diagnosing a problem such as your any idea is worth a try.

Rick G

Rick G

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It's a good idea to replace those blade type fuses as we have seen quite a few old ones go open circuit but not show as blown.

JayceLane

JayceLane

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Rick G, cool idea, for both me and Hessian me thinks.

JayceLane

JayceLane

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Not intending to high jack this thread, but have replaced all my blade fuses yesterday. Instruments glowing brighter, engine appeared smoother on start up. For the cost of about a $1. Nice gains.

Holister

Holister

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JayceLane wrote:Not intending to high jack this thread, but have replaced all my blade fuses yesterday. Instruments glowing brighter, engine appeared smoother on start up. For the cost of about a $1. Nice gains.

Just goes to show how important electrical connections are to the old K. I little corrosion can have a big impact on operating voltages. Try cleaning and deoxidizing all your connectors and earth connections.
Also batteries that aren't providing enough voltage under load can cause all sorts of problems.

indian036

indian036

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Re dirty connections, playing with the son in law's 20 year old BMW this morning - radio no-go.
Showed battery voltage in disconnected no-load situation. When connected and under load, showed only 2.5V.
Cleaned fuse connection in the rear distribution panel. Radio live now.

Rather nice as I have a quick overnighter to Switzerland tonight.

Bill

92KK 84WW Olaf

92KK 84WW Olaf

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Switzerland tonight........

Rodemack Thursday night........

Dublin Friday night.......

Cloud nine Saturday night.....

JayceLane

JayceLane

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92KK 84WW Olaf wrote:Switzerland tonight........

Rodemack Thursday night........

Dublin Friday night.......

Cloud nine Saturday night.....

I'm not going to ask. Or maybe I just did.

92KK 84WW Olaf

92KK 84WW Olaf

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JayceLane wrote:

92KK 84WW Olaf wrote:Switzerland tonight........

Rodemack Thursday night........

Dublin Friday night.......

Cloud nine Saturday night.....

I'm not going to ask. Or maybe I just did.

indian036

indian036

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92KK 84WW Olaf wrote:Switzerland tonight........

Rodemack Thursday night........

Dublin Friday night.......

Cloud nine Saturday night.....

Overnight at Kollbrunn tonight. Through Germany part of the way, though traffic meant I only peaked at 180km/h. Hit Basel at peak hour . . . Mad

More Germany, less France on the way back, so I'll see what the traffic allows tomorrow.

Olaf, your emoticons probably got my Sat night capacity correct!

Bill

92KK 84WW Olaf

92KK 84WW Olaf

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JayceLane wrote:Not intending to high jack this thread, but have replaced all my blade fuses yesterday. Instruments glowing brighter, engine appeared smoother on start up. For the cost of about a $1. Nice gains.

Those fuses do act up and I think should be replaced regularly.

Its good to see you on the forum and although you are a long way from some of us its a great way to keep in touch and who knows how far we might travel!.

Hessian

Hessian

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Hey guys, I havent been getting notifications of replies to the thread! Anyway, I have a day off today and risked fate. Turns out the injectors are not spraying anything anywhere. I have two sets and neither squirt, so I've avoided an explosion and discovered a probably cause for the issue.

The troubleshooting manual says to look for a pulsing negative voltage from #12 pin at FI computer. I know what pin I'm supposed to be looking at, but how do I set up my multimeter to detect a pulsing negative voltage?

If I can detect this, I apparently have a bad wire from FI to injectors.

Does this sound correct?

Thanks for the replies - I've checked the fuses via multimeter and all of them beep so they're all OK.

UPDATE: I read another section on the forum and have turned on the bike and put a multimeter in the socket and there is no voltage coming through. I didn't hit the starter at that point, but I believe I'm supposed to get some sort of reading even if the starter is not going...

Update 2: I may be guilty of tunnel vision. When I was doing the electrical test, I turned one of the plugs around and discovered some discoloration and a couple of small holes in the plastic covering. I've included a picture. I wonder if this part has shorted out and cooked the plastic covering? How would I test this exactly?

A number of questions seeking a number of answers - Page 2 Injectorplug1_zpsuudsoxkd

A number of questions seeking a number of answers - Page 2 Injectorplug1_zpsuudsoxkd

A number of questions seeking a number of answers - Page 2 Injhector2_zpsh7ueebgs

Holister

Holister

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Glad to hear you didn't blow yourself up. Very Happy

Looks like someone's hacked into that connector boot and sealed it back up.

If none of the injectors are spraying looks like the problem may be further back up the harness.

I've had a quick look back thru the thread and did a search for relays and can't find anything. Have you checked the fuel Injection relay is working?

I'd also look at testing for continuity in the injection harness.
Remove the connectors from all the injectors and check for continuity from the fuel injection relay (green/red) to one of the pins on an injector connector. Test each one, same pin, in turn. If there's no continuity there may be a problem with the connector under the tank, L/H side towards the rear (5 or 6 pin connector? you'll see the green/red wire). It may just need a good clean and deoxidise.

The other injector connector pin can be tested for continuity to pin #12 on the FICU plug.

Rick G

Rick G

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If you are looking for 12v neg then the red probe goes on the pos terminal and the black to where you want to see 12vneg

robmack

robmack

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Very true for an analog meter. What I think Hessian meant is that he is looking for a negative going pulse from pin #12 on the FI computer. There are no negative potentials relative to frame ground on our bikes to my knowledge. Even if there were, setting up a DVM to read that does not require any special effort; just negative lead to ground and positive lead to your test point. The reading on the DVM would have a negative sign. You have to have a sophisticated DVM to catch low duty-cycle pulses.

Aren't the injectors supplied +12V on one side and the other side gets grounded by the FI computer? I would think one would measure a floating potential that gets pulled to ground.

Holister

Holister

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robmack wrote:.... You have to have a sophisticated DVM to catch low duty-cycle pulses.

That's what I was thinking but I know little about electronics to say. Probably need a scope to see what's going on there.

What I see here is...
1. There's no signal getting to the injectors.
2. (It's difficult to see from the photo clearly but) There looks to be heat damage to the connector boot on one of the injectors.

If there's been a short in the wires at that connector and its still closed, it would be shorting out the other injectors as well because they're all connected in parrallel. Hence, no fuel injection.

I'd slip the connector boot back first to see what's happening there.

Hessian

Hessian

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I want to roll that boot back too, but it looks to be quite attached. I'll take a better look tonight or tomorrow. I had thought that damage there would be stopping that circuit from working, but don't know enough about electronics.

Point-Seven-five

Point-Seven-five

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I too, just went through the thread and noticed the fuel injection relay wasn't mentioned. Without that relay closing there will not be any power going to the injectors.

The very next thing you should check is whether the red/green wire from the fuel injection relay is being energized. A trick I've used is to pull out the relay and stick the end of a fairly thin wire(18AWG or thinner) that has about 10mm of the insulation stripped off into the receptacle for the pin on the relay that the red/green wire is connected to. With the wire in the receptacle put the relay back and connect the red lead of your meter to the other end of the wire.

Connect the black lead to ground and attempt to start the engine. The meter should show 12V. If not, the problem is in the relay.

If the fuel injection relay is good, the next common point is at the output of the EFI unit at pin 12. This pin has an output that goes to ground to pulse the injectors. I am not certain, but I would test by connecting the ground lead of a 12V LED to the yellow/green wire that is connected to pin 12.

The positive lead of the 12V LED goes to +12v wherever it is convenient to get it. Cranking the engine should cause the LED to flash. Since pin 12 flows enough current to fire the injectors, it should easily be able to flash an LED. Only problem would be if the pulse is too short to make a visible flash. At cranking speed we should get about 10 pulses per second. I would think that would be visible.

Hessian

Hessian

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Thanks .75

Unfortunately, Im at work at the moment, but tomorrow is going to be a productive day!

Point-Seven-five

Point-Seven-five

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Right now, my money is on the fuel injection relay. If it and the EFI pin 12 test good the next thing to check will be at the connector for one of the injectors. Same tests. Meter red lead to the pin with the red/green wire, followed by the 12V LED ground to the pin with the yellow/green wire.

Good luck! I think you're getting close.

Holister

Holister

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Yes likely to be the relay BUT the damaged connector boot looks awfully sus to me.

Point-Seven-five

Point-Seven-five

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Yes, the boot is a potential problem. If it is shorted across the injectors, not only will there not be enough voltage to fire the injectors, but there is a slight danger that the output of the EFI on pin 12 could be damaged by excessive current flowing through the short.

I wonder if all the boots are damaged. Might be a good idea to see if a good used harness can be had for long term reliability.

Regarding the relay, looking at the schematics again, it appears that since the fuel pump also gets power from the fuel injection relay, and the fuel pump is working, the relay may be OK. Still wouldn't hurt to check the red/green wire. It's an easy check as the voltage should be high and steady as long as the engine is cranking or running. Good point to check the connector you mentioned.

Once the +12v is confirmed at the injectors, the test 12V LED connection is simplified by just putting it across an injector connector terminals. You just have to be careful to have the LED polarity correct.

Holister

Holister

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To determine the integrety of the wiring under that damaged injector connector boot, check for continuity from the fuel injection harness connector to the injector plug (this will eliminate the harness connector from the equation).The fuel injection harness connects into the main harness under the tank. You could test from the same pin on another injector connector but you wouldn't know if that was faulty also.

A number of questions seeking a number of answers - Page 2 Fi_har10

Disconnect the plug from the FICU. You don't want to be applying extraneous voltages to the computer.
Test for continuity on the Green/Red wire between the connector under the tank to one of the connections on the injector plug. Try both till you find the right one.

You can use the diode setting on your DMM. It'll 'beeeep' when there's continuity. If you're using Ohms setting, just look for any reading as long as it's small.
This will just tell you if you have continuity from the harness connector. It won't tell you if its shorted to the other wire which returns to pin 12 FICU. To test that...

With the FICU plug still disconnected...
Test for continuity between the connections in the injector plug. A 'beeeep' or small resistance will indicate continuity between the wires which indicates a short.

If that's the case, slide the boot up to have a look. Try to keep it intact in case its repairable. Warming it up a little with a hair dryer may help to soften it to get it over the lip. They're supposed to be tight so they're water proof, but it's likely you'll need to replace the FI harness. There's one for sale on AU ebay atm.

If it tests ok, follow Point-Seven-five's direction on testing the relay etc.
You could also test for 12V at the injector connector in the same way. That will tell you if you're getting Vs thru the harness connector under the tank from the relay.

keith inglis

keith inglis

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Number of posts : 6

Hi Hessian, reading all your posts you seem to have covered most things, just a thought I am a retired Marine Engineer and we often had to deal with engines large and small that had been standing for months or years, and the bores had dried out reducing the compression, we got over this by putting a small abount of engine oil down each bore (about a tea spoon full in your engine should do it) this causes a tempory ring seal and restores the compression for a start, this might be worth a try and it will not do any harm anyway.
Keith

Hessian

Hessian

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Hi team,

Pinched the tip of my fingernail while taking the fuel tank off. Im sure these things only happen to me. The dogs were very concerned as I vented.

On the upside, the FI connectors do not beep when checking for a short Very Happy

. They DO beep from the harness to the plug, so the wiring harness and rubber boot question is sorted Very Happy

Now, the FI relay. I opened the tray and there are a couple, which one do I need to do the test on? I'll do a bit of research while awaiting a professional opinion...

*Also, there is a round white plug in the tray that is not connected to anything. Vas is das?

Going on the pic below, Im guessing the relay is bottom left or top right....

A number of questions seeking a number of answers - Page 2 WP_20150328_07_56_46_Pro_zpsu7jcexqx

A number of questions seeking a number of answers - Page 2 WP_20150328_07_56_46_Pro_zpsu7jcexqx

Holister

Holister

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FI relay is the orange/black one bottom left on your photo (Top/right with the big terminals is the starter relay).
White connector is for special equipment. (EDIT: Anti-theft System)
You need to have a look at the links on the portal page especially the one 'EFI/Electronic equipment Troubleshooting'

Last edited by Kaptain Holister on Fri Mar 27, 2015 9:08 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : added notes)

Holister

Holister

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Hessian wrote:....
On the upside, the FI connectors do not beep when checking for a short . They DO beep from the harness to the plug, so the wiring harness and rubber boot question is sorted
......

That's good news. Inspect that boot really well and make sure its wasserdicht!

Hessian

Hessian

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OK, well I did as .75 suggested with the wire from the green/red wire socket. It was a little dodgy as I had some wire that was relatively thick (comparatively), so I put a dozen or so strands down the plug, reconnected the relay and hit the starter.

I got some odd values, in that they were low and negative (-0.18). I could have been doing it wrong, but when I put the MM on the battery with the same setting, I get 12.67.

Does this mean the relay is cactus, even if the fuel pump is working?

Holister

Holister

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Sounds like you're reading a voltage drop instead of the full volts. Are you sure you've got it connected properly as .75 described? Make sure you're connecting to the Green/Red wire at the relay and the wire is not shorting to anything like other relay connections. I can't see anything in the wiring diagram that would interfere with that test.

Have you cleaned all your 'earth' connections? This can be really important. Test again but place your Neg probe directly to the Neg battery terminal. If you get 12V then likely you've got a bad earth.

Try getting 12V out of the injector plug. Pos probe to the connection you got a signal thru (green/Red wire) and neg probe to earth.

By the way... that's a good reading on your battery. Just make sure you maintain the charge properly while the bike's not running.

Hessian

Hessian

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OK, so I managed to get all of the wires into the plug for a solid connection. Cleaned the earth under the frame (I cleaned the other one on the engine casing previously). Hit starter and getting negative 12 volts but the figure goes up and down. I dont know if thats a negative pulse or what.

Anyway, from battery earth to injectors, Im getting -12 or thereabouts on all four.

The MM is set up to measure DC voltage, thats right?

I dont have a 12V LED lying about, so I'll go and try and find one today from the local shop

Holister

Holister

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12V at the injectors is a good sign but its starting to look more and more like the FICU. If it turns out to be that, I've got one for sale which I can send up and if its not a fix you can return it. Let me know.

Hessian

Hessian

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Is there a way to test the computer?

AND Im getting power to the number 9 plug on the connector that goes into the FICU. If you want to PM me for address details, I might borrow that computer if I may.

robmack

robmack

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Hessian wrote:OK, so I managed to get all of the wires into the plug for a solid connection. Cleaned the earth under the frame (I cleaned the other one on the engine casing previously). Hit starter and getting negative 12 volts but the figure goes up and down. I dont know if thats a negative pulse or what.

Anyway, from battery earth to injectors, Im getting -12 or thereabouts on all four.

The MM is set up to measure DC voltage, thats right?

I dont have a 12V LED lying about, so I'll go and try and find one today from the local shop

Just want to understand what you've done and verify what you're seeing.

First, into what are you stuffing wires? Are you trying to make a test point on pin 87 of the FI relay by inserting bare copper wires into the relay connector? I don't know that this is the best approach to take if so.

I'll assume that you are probing on one of the pin 87 of the FI relay (Green/Red wire). If you're measuring negative 12V relative to battery negative at that point, then the probes on your DMM are backwards, I think. If you are seeing voltage readings rise and fall, then EITHER the probe is not secure on the test point OR the relay contacts are bad. The FI relay switches constant power simultaneously to fuse #6 (fuel pump) and to all four injectors (because it is a STDP relay). Voltage measured on either of the Green/Red wires should not rise and fall.

It might be easier to unscrew the FI relay socket and have the bottom of the socket available to probe, rather than insert wires (if I understood correctly in the first place). I'm in agreement with .75's earlier summation that if the fuel pump works, the FI relay is functioning.

If you're having difficulty finding 12V LEDs, Local auto accessory shops should sell 12V LED bulbs as replacements for incandescent lamps. You can use one of those to test the injectors. It will need to have two wires soldered to it to act as probes.

Hessian

Hessian

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Well it turns out the MM was around the wrong way - in my defence the backing is black and the COM was in red.

Anyway, after trying the underside of the relay, I get +12V and it doesnt go up and down. Likewise, all the other measurements behave with + voltages.

I went to Jaycar (local automtovie shop) and came away with a 12V circuit tester for $3 as the guy didt have any 12V leds. Nothing lights up on the FI plugs, but I think its the tester is wrong for the application. 12V interior LED lights would probably work in a pinch?

charlie99

charlie99

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any standard led will work
you just have to current limit ( + voltage drop ) a led with usually about 470 - 560 ohms resistor in one of the legs

this limits the current going through it to something it will survive (usually about 20 milliamps ) ...if you do it without a resistor it would probably last about 1/4 of a second

if you get it round the wrong way might blow it up also ...although sometimes they survive ....you might find one of the 12 volt type leds with both a diode and a resistor already fitted in the assembly (the diode provides the reverse voltage protection ) the resistor is the current limit

if you want I can post pics ?

A number of questions seeking a number of answers - Page 2 2014-010

the black band on the right hand legs points in the current direction ( from high to low ) so is the negative of the led power

good luck

Hessian

Hessian

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Well I managed to get some more info before I take up on a replacement computer.

I cobbled together a 12V tester and I'm getting the quick pulses at the injector plugs when hitting the starter. I'm not sure if this is pertinent, but it only works when I have the ground attached to the bike, and not in the left socket of the plug, which I assumed to be a earth as well.

If this is how it's supposed to be, it'll be time for a replacement FICU

charlie99

charlie99

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if your getting quick pulses on start ...(as it should be ) then this is confusing ....pity we cant see how your connecting it all up

sounds like some thing is reversed or missing an earth reference to the efi computer - frame - loom ???? or loom positive connection or just got the leds round the wrong way ?

Hessian

Hessian

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I might go to the effort of making a video and showing whats going on

Holister

Holister

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Hessian wrote:Well I managed to get some more info before I take up on a replacement computer.

I cobbled together a 12V tester and I'm getting the quick pulses at the injector plugs when hitting the starter. I'm not sure if this is pertinent, but it only works when I have the ground attached to the bike, and not in the left socket of the plug, which I assumed to be a earth as well.

If this is how it's supposed to be, it'll be time for a replacement FICU

Good stuff! Very Happy

You obviously found an LED from somewhere and now you've got a sign from above cheers

that the computer is switching in some fashion. To me that sounds like the FICU could be working... "but" you say, "it only works when I have the ground attached to the bike". As charlie says, "this is confusing". scratch

I'm thinking that there's got to be a short or you haven't got your tester rigged correctly. LEDs are a diode which has a polarity. That is it will only work if connected the right way around. Try doing the test again reversing the leads from the LED to the pins of the injector plug contacts till you get a pulsing LED.
So, just to be sure, what you're doing is connecting each side of the diode to the 2 connections inside the injector plug. If no pulse then swap them around.

If still no pulse... When you earth to the bike and you get pulses (as you described)... do you also get pulses when you connect to the other connection in the injector plug? If so then your FI harness is shorting somewhere and I'm thinking that burnt looking boot. I know you tested before for a short but shorts and opens circuits can be intermittent.

Hessian

Hessian

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I feel like a bit of a retard, but the computer wasn't plugged in!

I plugged it in and got pulses from the fuel injector plugs via LED tester. Looks pretty cool. I plugged in a injector just to see if I could see the tip do anything while cranking the bike. Doesn't seem to do anything, but it may not do that without fuel pressure.

So sort of back to square one. All the electrics seem to work, so I've got no idea why the injectors wouldn't spray fuel.

I'm going to hook them back up and have another go and see if they squirt.

I havent tested fuel pressure, so it might be that relief valve thing thats hard to get to. Urgh.

Rick G

Rick G

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"I feel like a bit of a retard, but the computer wasn't plugged in!" Nothing to be embarrassed about we have all done it just that some don't admit to it. Laughing

Point-Seven-five

Point-Seven-five

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Welcome to the club.

It is really easy to immerse oneself in a problem and overlook some of the most obvious things. I have spent a good part of my life making things work. The hardest thing is keeping the big picture in mind and keeping track of all the details that bear on the problem at hand.

Every once in a while you need to step back and go over what you've done so far that got you to where you are right now. That's when you find the stuff that makes you feel like a fool. That's the stuff that usually winds up leading to the solution.

We've all been there before. Some of us a lot.

Holister

Holister

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Hessian wrote:.....
So sort of back to square one. All the electrics seem to work, so I've got no idea why the injectors wouldn't spray fuel.

Electrics may not have been working. Unplugging and plugging the relay and FI Harness connector has probably righted a poor connection. Soon see when you try to start again.

I thought you had tested fuel pressure????

Hessian

Hessian

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Number of posts : 45

Well the fuel is pressurised, in that it really shoots out of the hoses if you dont have one connected...

I just havent manometered it, because I don't have a manometer.

indian036

indian036

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Hessian wrote:Well the fuel is pressurised, in that it really shoots out of the hoses if you dont have one connected...

I just havent manometered it, because I don't have a manometer.

Manometer is for checking the comparative pressure (vacuum) at the throttle bodies on a running machine. Pressure gauge for fuel pressure from the pump or at the fuel rail. Smile

Bill

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74 Re: A number of questions seeking a number of answers Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:18 pm

Point-Seven-five

75 Re: A number of questions seeking a number of answers Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:23 pm

Hessian

76 Re: A number of questions seeking a number of answers Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:38 pm

Point-Seven-five

77 Re: A number of questions seeking a number of answers Thu Mar 26, 2015 10:07 pm

Holister

78 Re: A number of questions seeking a number of answers Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:02 am

Point-Seven-five

79 Re: A number of questions seeking a number of answers Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:41 am

Holister

80 Re: A number of questions seeking a number of answers Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:57 pm

keith inglis

81 Re: A number of questions seeking a number of answers Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:16 pm

Hessian

82 Re: A number of questions seeking a number of answers Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:43 pm

Holister

83 Re: A number of questions seeking a number of answers Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:48 pm

Holister

84 Re: A number of questions seeking a number of answers Fri Mar 27, 2015 8:13 pm

Hessian

85 Re: A number of questions seeking a number of answers Fri Mar 27, 2015 8:49 pm

Holister

86 Re: A number of questions seeking a number of answers Fri Mar 27, 2015 9:16 pm

Hessian

87 Re: A number of questions seeking a number of answers Fri Mar 27, 2015 9:59 pm

Holister

88 Re: A number of questions seeking a number of answers Fri Mar 27, 2015 10:05 pm

Hessian

89 Re: A number of questions seeking a number of answers Fri Mar 27, 2015 11:50 pm

robmack

90 Re: A number of questions seeking a number of answers Sat Mar 28, 2015 4:04 am

Hessian