K75 electrical weirdness

jjefferies · 1 K75 electrical weirdness Sun Jul 21, 2013 5:44 am

jjefferies

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Number of posts : 610

Hello, last week installed a LED bulb replacement kit in my K75 instrument pod. Installation wasn't a problem but on my second ride and the first after dark I found that the bulb monitoring warning light (rear brake light) in the pod would occasionally flash when I tapped either brake. To make it more interesting the Alternator warning light would also occasionally flash at the same time and infrequently the oil warning light might join in the fun. I checked the brake and rear running light and both are working fine. I also checked the fuses to insure that they are inserted properly.

While at this time I don't suspect the LED's other than they are probably more sensitive than the original incandescent bulbs I'm wondering if there's a common failure point where all three warning lights might be affected.

Has anyone else seen or recollect hearing of such weirdness? The problem was not apparent before I installed the LED's which leads me to think it's something I disturbed in the pod as opposed to the BMU going bad. The occasional flash of the alternator and oil lights would seem to suggest that. Looking at the circuitry diagrams it appears that all three feed to the same ground but not sure how that would cause the flashing.

thanks
JJefferies

charlie99 · 2 Re: K75 electrical weirdness Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:09 am

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I think you will find that the charge indicator globe to the alternator (in the instruments ) ..might have something to do with this . (given that you have changed it as well )

I would suggest that if you have changed the charge indicator that you change it back to a globe .

inherently a led will turn on faster than a lamp , this might result in you seeing flashes of voltage change from the altenator ..depending on load that you may not observe with a standard globe (in fact if you have the indicators on during nigh time and lights on as well as brake activation ,you will notice that most of the bulbs actually flash slightly as change in load is presented to the altenator) , and if you look at the electronic diagram of a led and its operation it is significantly different
now this in itself is not bad .....but ... the charge excitation to the field of the alternator is expecting a low impedance voltage feed ...capable of a few watts as designed ,,not the current restriction that a led represents additionally ...

a few of us have added leds as brake light output spread across the back of the bike ...but you will notice that the leds (in the same parallel circuit at the brake lamp ) turn on much faster than the filament type globe (and at lower current ) .

just my thoughts, that might help you.

jjefferies · 3 Re: K75 electrical weirdness Mon Jul 22, 2013 1:28 pm

jjefferies

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charlie99 wrote:I think you will find that the charge indicator globe to the alternator (in the instruments ) ..might have something to do with this . (given that you have changed it as well )

I would suggest that if you have changed the charge indicator that you change it back to a globe ...

just my thoughts, that might help you.

Understood and the fellow who supplied the LED kit warned me that as a result of what you are speaking of the engine has to reach 2K rpm before the alternator gets enough current/excitation to generate the appropriate voltages/power. And this does work. But he also has supplied a number of these kits to others as well as running them on his own bike.

My next step is to swap out the instrument pod (for once I have an extra) and confirm that the problem is in the pod before breaking it open again. It could be the BMU or it could be the diode that I see in the schematic. Or it could be something else entirely. If it were only the check light I would be looking at that circuit. But it's the occasional flashes from the alternator light and oil pressure light that puzzle.

thanks for your response.
Jonathan

charlie99 · 4 Re: K75 electrical weirdness Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:40 pm

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quite a few of us have replaced the battery earth cable

and commonly worth checking and cleaning the boltup to the gearbox on this cable ...also check clean the frame earth under the tank

I have seen a few alternators with very cruddy terminals to the regulator and main output ..

just something else to think about

jjefferies · 5 Re: K75 electrical weirdness Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:10 pm

jjefferies

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The mystery continues. It won't do it again today. Now that bothers me. Failure I can deal with. Intermittent freakiness is not tolerable. Will take it out after dark soon and see if it comes back.

Rick G · 6 Re: K75 electrical weirdness Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:43 pm

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You will leave it there for an hour then start feeling sorry for "the poor lil darling" and go get it and tuck it up nice and tight:lol:
We all love our K bikes and some times we would love to shoot them between the indicators.
I would be removing the Alt LED and replace it with the original incandescent bulb.

K-BIKE · 7 Re: K75 electrical weirdness Fri Jul 26, 2013 5:50 pm

K-BIKE

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Always worth cleaning up the bulb holder in the rear light they are prone to mild corrosion and momentary open circuits rapidly fixed by vibration might cause the flash you see. As others have said clean all connections and I suggest treat every electrical connection including bulb holders to a dose of DeoxIT.
Regards,
K-BIKE

jjefferies · 8 Re: K75 electrical weirdness Sat Jul 27, 2013 1:23 am

jjefferies

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Number of posts : 610

Swapped out the instrument pod for one with standard incandescent bulbs and the problem does not appear. So it's something in how I installed the LED's or perhaps this pod needs incandescents at some point. Electrical glitches are always a problem.

ibjman · 9 as posted above Sat Jul 27, 2013 1:38 am

ibjman

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As posted above......you need to remove the led from the charge light socket and re-install the incandescent bulb. The power running through the bulb affects the circuit. LED can't work there.
Regards, Ibjman

keefk1100lt · 10 Re: K75 electrical weirdness Sat Jul 27, 2013 5:22 am

keefk1100lt

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On the subject of electrical weirdness...

I've recently noticed that my clock is behaving very strangely. I turn the ignition on, it goes from reading, say, 13:23 to 01:56 or summat. Hit the starter button, engine fires up and now it's 09:19.

Now I know these machines can warp time a teensy bit, but bl00dy hell, that's a bit extreme, innit? Shocked

charlie99 · 11 Re: K75 electrical weirdness Sat Jul 27, 2013 5:37 am

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likely to be a iffy ignition switch keef ....
or just the usual corrosion in the under tank konnections huh ?!!
get some "deoxit " ??? its good stuff

keefk1100lt · 12 Re: K75 electrical weirdness Sat Jul 27, 2013 5:42 am

keefk1100lt

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Thanks Charlie, was thinking of dodgy connections at the cluster itself. Earth/grounds under the tank are fine, been there, done that!

Deoxit is en route.

Rick G · 13 Re: K75 electrical weirdness Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:26 am

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The connections on the clock itself will play up but usually it drops a segment or two on the LCD
If you have the cluster apart sometime its a good move to clean the contact area with a soft pencil eraser.

jjefferies · 14 Re: K75 electrical weirdness Mon Jul 29, 2013 4:11 am

jjefferies

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Slightly different question. there are two wires (actual one bundle and one single) coming out of the Hall effect compartment. Disregarding the multiple wire bundle which I believe is the Hall Effect connections, what is the other, single wire?

Or do I have it totally reversed. Doesn't affect original problem but I just found the sheath i.e. insulation torn on the single wire and was wondering what it affects as I can't distinguish it on the electrical diagrams.

charlie99 · 15 Re: K75 electrical weirdness Mon Jul 29, 2013 5:47 am

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probably the oil pressure sensor wire unless you have a auxiliary temperature gauge fitted .......how about a pic or two so we can see what you looking at ?

jjefferies · 16 Re: K75 electrical weirdness Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:58 am

jjefferies

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Good thought about posting pictures but for some reason I've not been able to do so.

About the original question, I replaced the WARNING LED with the regular incandescent bulb and the problem disappeared. Not sure if that was the actual cause or if by reseating all the LED's and bulb I un-tweaked something. Only way to know is to go back in and re-place the incandescent with the LED and that calls for taking the instrument pod apart again with possibilities of doing damage. And then truthfully I'm lazy. It works. leave it be. The issue several folks addressed of the alternator light needing an incandescent bulb doesn't appear to be a real issue. The LED is very sensitive and won't go out until the motor exceeds 2K rpm. But the LED works correctly as soon as the engine is blipped pass 2K rpm once. What I did find during a 1 hour ride after dark is that after a period of riding at a steady pace, if I hit the brakes the alternator LED will momentarily blink on as operation of the rear brake light causes a temporary drop in voltage until the regulator senses the drop and compensates. Guessing the LED is more sensitive than an incandescent.

About the other question I had, turns out there are 2 and sometimes three electrical (sensors) lines that come from the area of the Hall sensor: the hall sensor with several wires in a bundle, the oil pressure light (which is what got compromised i.e. skinned), and POSSIBLY for some bikes the water temperature sensor line. The third is an option for the more kitted out bikes.

And in the process of learning about all of this I swapped a K11|R100GS drive shaft for a K75 fork tube to replace the one I have which has rust pits in the area that rubs by the fork seal. AND scored 35 lbs of nuts, bolts, washers and other odd small parts taken from BMW motorcycles. This latter may be a bit of a joke on me. Think of trying to sort 35 lbs of nuts, bolts, etc. Best method I've come up with is to put the bolts in 3 piles, small, med, large and then a pile for what I know came off of a K75/100. But lord why BMW has to have so many different sized bolts. I've begun to wonder if there might not be fasteners from cars in there as well.

Anyway thanks to those who responded. My project bike is again moving forward.

charlie99 · 17 Re: K75 electrical weirdness Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:56 am

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good to learn the idiosyncrasies that present themselves ...and make sensible judgements about what's ....erm ...normal

sounds like your getting there

there are only a few sizes really ....I guess you just have to think along the lines of "load expected" ...and add a safety margin for size and stress

its a metric system ...and it works well .

ibjman · 18 Some people just refuse Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:41 am

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Some people just seem to refuse to accept information that they don't "want" to be told. In spite of how many people tell them.

This poster still want's to believe that the LED he "wants" to work in the alternator warning lamp circuit, will operate normally although he himself has proven otherwise.

I don't mean to "rant" here.....but many experienced folks here at the forum spend considerable time & effort laying out facts & explanations to help those less experienced understand the basic mechanical & electrical concepts of the motorcycle.

It troubles me that people who ask for help in the forum absolutely refuse to accept the information once it is posted for them.

The fact is that the LED can not transfer the amperage through it needed to "excite" the field in the alternator.
The solid filament wire in the incandescent bulb is the path to the alternator field for the field current excitation to start the charging process.

I think it is fine if the enquirer does not believe the facts as posted.

I wish he would refrain from insulting the intelligence of the group by dis-agreeing with the facts.

Regards, Ibjman

jjefferies · 19 Re: K75 electrical weirdness Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:46 pm

jjefferies

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ibjman wrote:Some people just seem to refuse to accept information that they don't "want" to be told. In spite of how many people tell them.

This poster still want's to believe that the LED he "wants" to work in the alternator warning lamp circuit, will operate normally although he himself has proven otherwise.

I don't mean to "rant" here.....but many experienced folks here at the forum spend considerable time & effort laying out facts & explanations to help those less experienced understand the basic mechanical & electrical concepts of the motorcycle.

It troubles me that people who ask for help in the forum absolutely refuse to accept the information once it is posted for them.

The fact is that the LED can not transfer the amperage through it needed to "excite" the field in the alternator.
The solid filament wire in the incandescent bulb is the path to the alternator field for the field current excitation to start the charging process.

I think it is fine if the enquirer does not believe the facts as posted.

I wish he would refrain from insulting the intelligence of the group by dis-agreeing with the facts.

Regards, Ibjman

Ibjman,
Sorry if you took my comments as personal insult. I regard the internet and the forums in the sense of the IBMWR as an electronic campfire, a place to share opinion and experiences. And I take those opinions as a starting place for my own explorations. The fellow I bought the LED kit from has been selling them for 7 years and has sold quite a few, perhaps in the hundreds. His acknowledges that the alternator LED does not provide sufficient current/voltage until the engine rpm's exceed 2K the first time after starting. My experience agrees with his interpretation. And I added my observation that the alternator LED is more sensitive to short term drops in voltage as power requirements change and the charging circuit responds to the change.

Anecdotal comment: Recently went on a club campout. Before starting noticed that my rear tire was to the wear bars and then some. Considered opinion by my fellow riders with easily over a couple of million miles of experience between us was that it was good for at least another 1-2 K. When we rode into camp a couple of hundred miles later another rider pointed out to me that I was into 2 layers of cord. Every ridden home on duct tape? Me, neither. I called the wife and she came out in her truck to give me and the bike a ride back.

My point? I appreciated my buddies opinions, but
In the final analysis it's my motorcycle, my ass and I don't believe god declaims over the internet.

P.S. as I said I do appreciate others opinions and experiences and make use of them even if only to check my sanity. I also balance that against 40 years of professional experience as a physicist, flight test engineer, hardware/software engineer, computer geek doing a bit of everything from foundry work (pouring aluminum and bronze casting) to design of instruments for space flight and testing TV set top box designs.

Best regards
J. Jefferies

ibjman · 20 Re: K75 electrical weirdness Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:33 pm

ibjman

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jjefferies wrote:
About the original question, I replaced the WARNING LED with the regular incandescent bulb and the problem disappeared. Not sure if that was the actual cause or if by reseating all the LED's and bulb I un-tweaked something. Only way to know is to go back in and re-place the incandescent with the LED and that calls for taking the instrument pod apart again with possibilities of doing damage. And then truthfully I'm lazy. It works. leave it be. The issue several folks addressed of the alternator light needing an incandescent bulb doesn't appear to be a real issue. The LED is very sensitive and won't go out until the motor exceeds 2K rpm. But the LED works correctly as soon as the engine is blipped pass 2K rpm once. What I did find during a 1 hour ride after dark is that after a period of riding at a steady pace, if I hit the brakes the alternator LED will momentarily blink on as operation of the rear brake light causes a temporary drop in voltage until the regulator senses the drop and compensates. Guessing the LED is more sensitive than an incandescent.

Sorry if I got a bit "over the top".
I have re-read your post and it still would appear that what you were saying was that after all the conversation & experience with this was that ....the problem might not have been created by changing from an incandescent to an LED.

IMHO .....it is not that the LED is very "sensitive" hence won't go out till 2K rpm. The issue is that the alternator will not start to charge (with the LED in place) until it gets to 2K rpm and can excite the field without the current coming from the bulb.

As with email.....in anything written, "tone of voice" can not be determined and is often misinterpreted.

I am usually very careful to give a wide latitude in this area & try not to judge people. Perhaps I erred and was too hasty with my comment.
And/Or perhaps JJ could have posted his ideas differently.

I look forward to continuing to view everyone's ideas.

Thanks, Regards, Ibj...

RT · 21 K75 electrical weirdness Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:36 am

RT

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Are you sure your name isn't Sheldon or Howard?

charlie99 · 22 Re: K75 electrical weirdness Thu Aug 01, 2013 5:59 am

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ibjman · 23 Sorry RT Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:36 pm

ibjman

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Sorry RT......I don't know who those 2 guys are, hence I don't understand the joke.

My bad.

Appears that Charlie gets it???

Regards, Ibj...

k75RT Keith · 24 Re: K75 electrical weirdness Mon Aug 05, 2013 11:21 pm

k75RT Keith

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Number of posts : 105

Jay has a valid point and teh fact that some of you want to make fun of him is actually rather rude.

If you calculate the load from the wattage of the filament style bulbs vs the LED, the load is significantly diminished. Because of the lower load, the reduced energy need to light an LED and the fact that there are fluctuations in the electrical circuit, sometimes the LED's will glow. It wont hurt your machine, It won't cause a catastrophic failure of the charging system And it wont affect your gauge cluster. You'll do more damage running a pair of 85 watt driving lights and your heated gear..

All this has been explained before on this site and the others you may frequent. What you have happening is nothing new. If you had read the instructions that came with the LED set, you would have KNOWN that some of teh lamps may glow and WHY.

FL1963 · 25 LED signals. Sun Aug 11, 2013 5:52 am

FL1963

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Number of posts : 9

Is it worth using a separate LED relay if you intend to use LED signals?

Can the normal flasher relay be removed without disturbing the bulb monitoring relay?

Rick G · 26 Re: K75 electrical weirdness Sun Aug 11, 2013 5:58 am

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The indicators would only flash while you are holding the switch on either side and there will be no auto cancel.

rosskko · 27 Re: K75 electrical weirdness Sun Aug 11, 2013 7:14 am

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ibjman wrote:Sorry RT......I don't know who those 2 guys are, hence I don't understand the joke.

My bad.

Appears that Charlie gets it???

Regards, Ibj...

Big Bang Theory.

Come on Ibj.
Get with the program. Or you haven't seen it then.........
We are in season 6 so maybe you missed the boat.

Shelon is a very smart and intelectual person who explains things in a manner that folks of his intelectual ability would easily understand. The rest of us just nod. And smile. And then change the subject.

RT is suggesting in the most polite manner that you just dumb the hell it down. I don't know any other way to say it. But know it is said in the nicest possible way.

Last edited by rossko on Sun Aug 11, 2013 7:23 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : should have paid more attention to the original post)

ibjman · 28 Thank You for that Sun Aug 11, 2013 12:42 pm

ibjman

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Number of posts : 853

Thanks Rossko!

Big BANG Theory!!!!!! Sorry, I just didn't get that!!!!
I generally don't watch that silly stuff......my wife does. She actually finds it funny!

I do tend to over explain things. I guess I have some concern that often.....the subject matter is often quite technical and the people we are trying to explain the finite details too are often..... not.

I sit here & read these posts as our peers spew (maybe the wrong word) out remedies to questions and also see that the person needing the info, just mis-understood the answer. Often because the answer just wasn't quite what he had hoped to hear.

I have the time to work with people and occasionally, (in large part, due to what I've learned from our excellent friends here) the knowledge to do so. (Thanks Inge).

I think I have the tendency to want to be a technical writer but alas, do not possess the fine command of the (Queen's) English language to do it effectively.........

Oh Dear.....there I go again.....Big BANG!

Thanks for the insight. It really was pretty funny, now that I understand it.

Perhaps I was "The slinky, cute tall skinny "blonde" in a past life???

I expect that I'm too far gone, (+ I'm kind of stubborn) for RT to help me dumb down the posts. (after all, what can I expect from a fellow who drives a COUCH, down the wrong side of the road!).....but I'll take the criticism as intended.

Thanks & Hugs to all, Ibj...

Regards, Ibj...

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1 K75 electrical weirdness Sun Jul 21, 2013 5:44 am

jjefferies

2 Re: K75 electrical weirdness Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:09 am

charlie99

3 Re: K75 electrical weirdness Mon Jul 22, 2013 1:28 pm

jjefferies

4 Re: K75 electrical weirdness Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:40 pm

charlie99

5 Re: K75 electrical weirdness Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:10 pm

jjefferies

6 Re: K75 electrical weirdness Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:43 pm

Rick G

7 Re: K75 electrical weirdness Fri Jul 26, 2013 5:50 pm

K-BIKE

8 Re: K75 electrical weirdness Sat Jul 27, 2013 1:23 am

jjefferies

9 as posted above Sat Jul 27, 2013 1:38 am

ibjman

10 Re: K75 electrical weirdness Sat Jul 27, 2013 5:22 am

keefk1100lt

11 Re: K75 electrical weirdness Sat Jul 27, 2013 5:37 am

charlie99

12 Re: K75 electrical weirdness Sat Jul 27, 2013 5:42 am

keefk1100lt

13 Re: K75 electrical weirdness Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:26 am

Rick G

14 Re: K75 electrical weirdness Mon Jul 29, 2013 4:11 am

jjefferies

15 Re: K75 electrical weirdness Mon Jul 29, 2013 5:47 am

charlie99

16 Re: K75 electrical weirdness Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:58 am

jjefferies

17 Re: K75 electrical weirdness Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:56 am

charlie99

18 Some people just refuse Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:41 am

ibjman

19 Re: K75 electrical weirdness Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:46 pm

jjefferies

20 Re: K75 electrical weirdness Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:33 pm

ibjman

21 K75 electrical weirdness Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:36 am

RT

22 Re: K75 electrical weirdness Thu Aug 01, 2013 5:59 am

charlie99

23 Sorry RT Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:36 pm

ibjman

24 Re: K75 electrical weirdness Mon Aug 05, 2013 11:21 pm

k75RT Keith

25 LED signals. Sun Aug 11, 2013 5:52 am

FL1963

26 Re: K75 electrical weirdness Sun Aug 11, 2013 5:58 am

Rick G

27 Re: K75 electrical weirdness Sun Aug 11, 2013 7:14 am

rosskko

28 Thank You for that Sun Aug 11, 2013 12:42 pm

ibjman

29 Re: K75 electrical weirdness

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