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1Back to top Go down   86 k100 Spark Empty 86 k100 Spark Mon Apr 24, 2023 9:44 am

boomhour

boomhour
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I have a 86 K100 that I'm rebuilding from the ground up.  before I started the rebuild process the bike ran fine.  fast forward 9 months and I've rewired utilizing the m-unit blue and schematic from Mikey from Piha.  I don't have the gas can on the bike yet as I want to verify spark before I install the tank over the m-unit.  

My issue is that I'm not getting any spark when I ground a plug and hit the starter motor.  the starter and battery are in good shape.  the starter sounds strong.  bike is in neutral for this test. plugs and wires are new and the correct 5ohm resitance type with bosch plugs. I have also tested the coils and they ohm out without cross talk signals. I've tested power at the ignition module and fuel injection module and everything seems good from what I've tested.  the temp sensor is brand new and installed per schematic. 

I think everything is install and working except for the signal that tells the bike to spark.  I've read that the signal comes from the hall sensor.  how do I test the hall sensor?  when I hit the starter should I see the hall sensor turning?  right now I see nothing moving at the hall sensor when I hit the starter and am confused as to how the spark signal is initiated?  

thanks for your help!

    

2Back to top Go down   86 k100 Spark Empty Re: 86 k100 Spark Mon Apr 24, 2023 9:52 am

moriarti

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The Hall sensor is fixed the shaft in the centre rotates  just like the distributor on a car. Very Happy


__________________________________________________
1984 k100 rs red/black VIN  0004449 Now sold to Olaf
    

3Back to top Go down   86 k100 Spark Empty Re: 86 k100 Spark Mon Apr 24, 2023 11:45 am

boomhour

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moriarti wrote:The Hall sensor is fixed the shaft in the centre rotates  just like the distributor on a car. Very Happy

Moriarti,  what should I do if the shaft and cup are not spinning when the starter is?  I believe this is why I'm not getting any spark.

    

4Back to top Go down   86 k100 Spark Empty Re: 86 k100 Spark Mon Apr 24, 2023 11:54 am

92KK 84WW Olaf

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Have you a neutral light on or clutch lever pulled in as normal?


__________________________________________________
1992 K100LT 0193214 Bertha Blue 101,000 miles
1984 K100RT 0022575 Brutus Baja Red 578 bought 36,000 now 89,150 miles
1997 K1100LT 0188024 Wotan Mystic Red 689 58,645 now 106,950 miles Deceased.
1983 K100RS 0011157 Fricka 606 Alaska Blue 29,495 miles Damn K Pox Its a Bat outta Hell Now 58,200 miles. 
1996 K1100LT 0233004 Lohengrin Mystic Red 38,000 miles currently 51,800 miles.
1983 K100RS 0004449 Odette R100 colours 58,000 miles. Sprint fairing now 63,390 miles

Past:
1968 Yamaha 80 YG1
1971 Yamaha 125 YAS-1
1968 Honda 125 SS
1970 Honda CD 175
1973 Honda CB500-4
Honda CX 500
    

5Back to top Go down   86 k100 Spark Empty Re: 86 k100 Spark Mon Apr 24, 2023 11:55 am

moriarti

moriarti
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SOB affraid affraid JUST TO BE CLEAR ENGINE TURNING OVER FINE IS THAT CORRECT


__________________________________________________
1984 k100 rs red/black VIN  0004449 Now sold to Olaf
    

6Back to top Go down   86 k100 Spark Empty Re: 86 k100 Spark Mon Apr 24, 2023 12:54 pm

boomhour

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92KK 84WW Olaf wrote:Have you a neutral light on or clutch lever pulled in as normal?
Yes, the bike is in neutral and neutral light is on.  I do not pull the clutch in as I don't believe this bike requires the clutch lever to be pulled in to start. Maybe I'm wrong on the clutch lever switch?

    

7Back to top Go down   86 k100 Spark Empty Re: 86 k100 Spark Mon Apr 24, 2023 12:59 pm

boomhour

boomhour
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moriarti wrote:SOB affraid affraid JUST TO BE CLEAR ENGINE TURNING OVER FINE IS THAT CORRECT
Yes, there is a full battery on a tender and starter seems to be strong.  But, I'm not seeing action behind the hall sensor with I hit the starter.

    

8Back to top Go down   86 k100 Spark Empty Re: 86 k100 Spark Mon Apr 24, 2023 2:41 pm

Point-Seven-five

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Is the starter motor turning the engine or is it just spinning?  The Sprag Clutch on these bikes is nown to have problems that prevent the engine from turning when the starter runs.


__________________________________________________
Present: 1991 K100RS "Moby Brick Too"
 
Past:
1994 K75RT "Ilsa, She Wolf of the SS"
1988 K100RS SE "Special Ed"
1994 K75S "Cheetos"
1992 K100RS "Moby Brick" R.I.P.
1982 Honda FT500
1979 Honda XR185
1977 Honda XL125
1974 Honda XL125
1972 OSSA Pioneer 250
1968 Kawasaki 175
    

9Back to top Go down   86 k100 Spark Empty Re: 86 k100 Spark Mon Apr 24, 2023 3:03 pm

moriarti

moriarti
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OK starter engages with engine, engine turns over ok. Now if the centre shaft of Hall censer is not turning you have a problem. you say it ran ok before. SO DOUBLE  CHECK what you have done up to now. Best of luck hopefully someone will have the answer 86 k100 Spark 78846 86 k100 Spark 78846


__________________________________________________
1984 k100 rs red/black VIN  0004449 Now sold to Olaf
    

10Back to top Go down   86 k100 Spark Empty Re: 86 k100 Spark Mon Apr 24, 2023 3:42 pm

boomhour

boomhour
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Point-Seven-five wrote:Is the starter motor turning the engine or is it just spinning?  The Sprag Clutch on these bikes is nown to have problems that prevent the engine from turning when the starter runs.
the engine is all buttoned up so how would I be able to tell if the engine is turning over?  I'm sure I installed the sprag clutch and gear in good working order as there were no issues before tear down.

    

11Back to top Go down   86 k100 Spark Empty Re: 86 k100 Spark Mon Apr 24, 2023 3:51 pm

moriarti

moriarti
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OH DEAR Surprised Surprised REMOVE ALL SPARKPLUGS PRESS STARTER, WITH ENGINE SPINNING YOU WILL HEAR THE PUFF PUFF OF THE COMPRETION COMING OUT OF PLUG HOLES.


__________________________________________________
1984 k100 rs red/black VIN  0004449 Now sold to Olaf
    

12Back to top Go down   86 k100 Spark Empty Re: 86 k100 Spark Mon Apr 24, 2023 4:21 pm

Laitch

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boomhour wrote:
Point-Seven-five wrote:Is the starter motor turning the engine or is it just spinning?  The Sprag Clutch on these bikes is nown to have problems that prevent the engine from turning when the starter runs.
the engine is all buttoned up so how would I be able to tell if the engine is turning over?  I'm sure I installed the sprag clutch and gear in good working order as there were no issues before tear down.
Starter sprag clutch problem. Sound familiar?

    

13Back to top Go down   86 k100 Spark Empty Re: 86 k100 Spark Mon Apr 24, 2023 4:30 pm

boomhour

boomhour
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moriarti wrote:OK starter engages with engine, engine turns over ok. Now if the centre shaft of Hall censer is not turning you have a problem. you say it ran ok before. SO DOUBLE  CHECK what you have done up to now. Best of luck hopefully someone will have the answer 86 k100 Spark 78846 86 k100 Spark 78846
Yes, it ran fine before tear down.  all covers were removed and painted but the block was not separeted past the oil sump/output shaft. I also tore down the starter motor for cleaning and painting.  the sprag was removed as part of the tear down but I believe It went back in the right way as there are videos online that I followed along with. 

before I undo the entire back end of the bike to get at the sprag, is it possible that I somehow reversed the polarity on the starter motor and its spinning the wrong direction?  I did tear it apart to clean and paint.  If that's not possible then I'll refer to the sprag trouble shooting link that i've see around to see if I can get the hall senor signal going.

Laitch, yes it sounds like the video you linked.  I wonder if the assembly lube I used to put things back together is an issue?

    

14Back to top Go down   86 k100 Spark Empty Re: 86 k100 Spark Mon Apr 24, 2023 4:51 pm

Laitch

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boomhour wrote:Laitch, yes it sounds like the video you linked.  I wonder if the assembly lube I used to put things back together is an issue?
If the sprag clutch was disassembled entirely, the sprags themselves could have been reassembled in reverse orientation causing this lack of engagement. The sprags should not have been lubed. What type of assembly lube was used?

The crankshaft has counterclockwise rotation when viewed from the front of the engine.

    

15Back to top Go down   86 k100 Spark Empty Re: 86 k100 Spark Mon Apr 24, 2023 4:57 pm

moriarti

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So the engine IS NOT turning over.


__________________________________________________
1984 k100 rs red/black VIN  0004449 Now sold to Olaf
    

16Back to top Go down   86 k100 Spark Empty Re: 86 k100 Spark Mon Apr 24, 2023 4:58 pm

Point-Seven-five

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Yes, it is possible, and actually pretty easy to put the starter back together so it runs backwards.  I believe it has to do with the polarity of the permanent magnets if the body is installed 180 degrees out.  You are supposed to mark the end caps to the body to avoid this problem. 

There is information here on clleaning and servicing starters.  You might want to do a search and read up on the process. 

As far as the sprag, I would not worry about lube in it, it get lots of lube oil in the engine.  The main problem seems to be dirt preventing the pawls from rocking down to lock the clutch so it can spin the engine.


__________________________________________________
Present: 1991 K100RS "Moby Brick Too"
 
Past:
1994 K75RT "Ilsa, She Wolf of the SS"
1988 K100RS SE "Special Ed"
1994 K75S "Cheetos"
1992 K100RS "Moby Brick" R.I.P.
1982 Honda FT500
1979 Honda XR185
1977 Honda XL125
1974 Honda XL125
1972 OSSA Pioneer 250
1968 Kawasaki 175
    

17Back to top Go down   86 k100 Spark Empty Re: 86 k100 Spark Mon Apr 24, 2023 5:02 pm

Laitch

Laitch
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Point-Seven-five wrote:As far as the sprag, I would not worry about lube in it, it get lots of lube oil in the engine.
Was it you who wrote about molybdenum in crankcase oil causing faulty sprag clutch engagement necessitating flushing and replacement of oil to restore its function?

    

18Back to top Go down   86 k100 Spark Empty Re: 86 k100 Spark Mon Apr 24, 2023 5:13 pm

Point-Seven-five

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Who, me???

That was someone who hacked my account.  That idiot loaded up the cams and output shaft gears with molybdenum assembly lube that got into the engine oil and a while later it got into the sprag requiring an engine flush and oil change. 

It appears that I still have that haunting me.  See, kids, the interweb is forever. 

Having denied the above, I think that as long as the original poster didn't put molybdenum all over the place and used a moly-free assembly lube he should be okay.  I stand by my advice to check the starter motor first before embarking on the tribulations of getting to the sprag. 

Even if he did load things up with moly like that guy who hacked my account, he can get things corrected by doing an engine flush by running a while with Seafoam in the engine oil and doing an oil change.


__________________________________________________
Present: 1991 K100RS "Moby Brick Too"
 
Past:
1994 K75RT "Ilsa, She Wolf of the SS"
1988 K100RS SE "Special Ed"
1994 K75S "Cheetos"
1992 K100RS "Moby Brick" R.I.P.
1982 Honda FT500
1979 Honda XR185
1977 Honda XL125
1974 Honda XL125
1972 OSSA Pioneer 250
1968 Kawasaki 175
    

19Back to top Go down   86 k100 Spark Empty Re: 86 k100 Spark Mon Apr 24, 2023 5:20 pm

Laitch

Laitch
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Point-Seven-five wrote: . . . I think that as long as the original poster didn't put molybdenum all over the place and used a moly-free assembly lube he should be okay.  I stand by my advice to check the starter motor first before embarking on the tribulations of getting to the sprag.
Hence my query concerning the type of assembly lube used  You're a memorable instructor. Laughing

Reverse starter rotation certainly a possibility.

    

20Back to top Go down   86 k100 Spark Empty Re: 86 k100 Spark Mon Apr 24, 2023 5:52 pm

92KK 84WW Olaf

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boomhour wrote:
92KK 84WW Olaf wrote:Have you a neutral light on or clutch lever pulled in as normal?
Yes, the bike is in neutral and neutral light is on.  I do not pull the clutch in as I don't believe this bike requires the clutch lever to be pulled in to start. Maybe I'm wrong on the clutch lever switch?
No, neutral light on should do it. But it is good to pull the clutch anyway as its less load on the starter.

But others have mentioned starter running in reverse. However if that happens all you get is a whine and the engine does not turn over.


__________________________________________________
1992 K100LT 0193214 Bertha Blue 101,000 miles
1984 K100RT 0022575 Brutus Baja Red 578 bought 36,000 now 89,150 miles
1997 K1100LT 0188024 Wotan Mystic Red 689 58,645 now 106,950 miles Deceased.
1983 K100RS 0011157 Fricka 606 Alaska Blue 29,495 miles Damn K Pox Its a Bat outta Hell Now 58,200 miles. 
1996 K1100LT 0233004 Lohengrin Mystic Red 38,000 miles currently 51,800 miles.
1983 K100RS 0004449 Odette R100 colours 58,000 miles. Sprint fairing now 63,390 miles

Past:
1968 Yamaha 80 YG1
1971 Yamaha 125 YAS-1
1968 Honda 125 SS
1970 Honda CD 175
1973 Honda CB500-4
Honda CX 500
    

21Back to top Go down   86 k100 Spark Empty Re: 86 k100 Spark Mon Apr 24, 2023 5:55 pm

boomhour

boomhour
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Point-Seven-five wrote:Yes, it is possible, and actually pretty easy to put the starter back together so it runs backwards.  I believe it has to do with the polarity of the permanent magnets if the body is installed 180 degrees out.  You are supposed to mark the end caps to the body to avoid this problem. 

There is information here on clleaning and servicing starters.  You might want to do a search and read up on the process. 

As far as the sprag, I would not worry about lube in it, it get lots of lube oil in the engine.  The main problem seems to be dirt preventing the pawls from rocking down to lock the clutch so it can spin the engine.
i cleaned the sprag with break cleaner before reinstalling it so it should not have anything binding it up.  

I believe I used amsoil assembly lube but will check when i get home.

    

22Back to top Go down   86 k100 Spark Empty Re: 86 k100 Spark Mon Apr 24, 2023 5:56 pm

boomhour

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moriarti wrote:So the engine IS NOT turning over.
I'm really not sure now.  from the video posted it seems as thought the starter is just spinning and not turning the engine over.  my observations of at the open hall sensor vault confirmed no turn over is happening when starter is running.

    

23Back to top Go down   86 k100 Spark Empty Re: 86 k100 Spark Mon Apr 24, 2023 6:01 pm

boomhour

boomhour
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Laitch wrote:
boomhour wrote:Laitch, yes it sounds like the video you linked.  I wonder if the assembly lube I used to put things back together is an issue?
If the sprag clutch was disassembled entirely, the sprags themselves could have been reassembled in reverse orientation causing this lack of engagement. The sprags should not have been lubed. What type of assembly lube was used?

The crankshaft has counterclockwise rotation when viewed from the front of the engine.
i did not remove the sprags themselves.  I simply cleaned the assembly and put it back in per the video tutorials I found online here. see minute 7:00

    

24Back to top Go down   86 k100 Spark Empty Re: 86 k100 Spark Mon Apr 24, 2023 6:25 pm

Laitch

Laitch
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boomhour wrote: I simply cleaned the assembly and put it back in per the video tutorials I found online.. . .so it should not have anything binding it up.
I believe I used amsoil assembly lube but will check when i get home.
OK, you sprayed the sprag clutch with brake cleaner. Did you move each sprag to be certain it was not gummed up and moved easily?

It's likely either that the sprags in the starter clutch are slipping because:
they are not gripping the clutch's hub because of excess lube;
they're not rotating on their axes to engage the hub because they're still dirty;
or
the engine shaft assembly is rotating in the wrong direction for sprag engagement because the starter was mis-assembled. The noise in the video indicates a starter clutch problem likely caused one or more of those reasons.

Check the starter's rotation.

    

25Back to top Go down   86 k100 Spark Empty Re: 86 k100 Spark Mon Apr 24, 2023 6:27 pm

boomhour

boomhour
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Laitch wrote:
boomhour wrote: I simply cleaned the assembly and put it back in per the video tutorials I found online.. . .so it should not have anything binding it up.
I believe I used amsoil assembly lube but will check when i get home.
OK, you sprayed the sprag clutch with brake cleaner. Did you move each sprag to be certain it was not gummed up and moved easily?

It's likely either that the sprags in the starter clutch are slipping because:
they are not gripping the clutch's hub because of excess lube;
they're not rotating on their axes to engage the hub because they're still dirty;
or
the engine shaft assembly is rotating in the wrong direction for sprag engagement because the starter was mis-assembled. The noise in the video indicates a starter clutch problem likely caused one or more of those reasons.

Check the starter's rotation.
thank you.  I will pull the starter and most likey i have installed it 180 out as it was a couple months sitting on the bench waiting for paint etc with no regard given to orientation.  So I'm clear, it shoud be spinning counter clockwise when facing the gear?

    

26Back to top Go down   86 k100 Spark Empty Re: 86 k100 Spark Mon Apr 24, 2023 8:10 pm

Laitch

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boomhour wrote: So I'm clear, it shoud be spinning counter clockwise when facing the gear?
86 k100 Spark K100_e11

    

27Back to top Go down   86 k100 Spark Empty Spark Mon Apr 24, 2023 9:40 pm

daveyson

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If these four alignment marks don't line up, you want to have another go at it. If they do line up, it's spinning the right way.86 k100 Spark Img_2098


__________________________________________________
11/1985 BMW K100RT (late model)  Vin. 0090567
 ~120,000 km
    

28Back to top Go down   86 k100 Spark Empty Re: 86 k100 Spark Mon Apr 24, 2023 10:12 pm

boomhour

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Laitch wrote:
boomhour wrote: So I'm clear, it shoud be spinning counter clockwise when facing the gear?
86 k100 Spark K100_e11
success.  the starter motor housing was installed 180 off which was confirmed with the starter off the bike.  I simply turned it upside down and I now have spark.  thanks for everyone jumping in the educate me.   86 k100 Spark 314114

    

29Back to top Go down   86 k100 Spark Empty Re: 86 k100 Spark Mon Apr 24, 2023 11:17 pm

duck

duck
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I once bought a K once where somebody had forgotten to put the two bolts back in so the starter was loose. Surprisingly it still started and ran fine. (Yes, I replaced them when I discovered this.)


__________________________________________________
Current stable:
86 Custom K100 (standard fairing, K75 Belly pan, Ceramic chromed engine covers, paralever)
K75 Frankenbrick (Paralever, K11 front end, hybrid ABS, K1100RS fairing, radial tires)
86 K75C Turbo w/ paralever
94 K1100RS
93 K1100LT
91 K1
93 K75S (K11 front end)
91 K75S (K1 front end)
14 Yamaha WR250R
98 Taxi Cab K1200RS
14 K1600GT
http://www.ClassicKBikes.com
    

30Back to top Go down   86 k100 Spark Empty Re: 86 k100 Spark Tue Apr 25, 2023 12:05 am

boomhour

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duck wrote:I once bought a K once where somebody had forgotten to put the two bolts back in so the starter was loose. Surprisingly it still started and ran fine. (Yes, I replaced them when I discovered this.)
it's in there snug.  I had to come at it with a 24" pry bar up under the alternator from the right side.  nearly took the bike off the center stand.   Shocked

    

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