Inge K. wrote:

charlie99 wrote:hope these black ones are a little more waterproof

Just plain black???????..........how dissapointing.........what do we now gonna make jokes about????????

How about, the writing on the boot is backwords when he's riding:suspect:

Gees Charlie they a bit flash! New Boots we will have to look for the head in a crowd now instead of bending over and finding the fancy ones.

yippee ...!
nice and sunny here at last after weeks and weeks of rain ....quite unseasonal

so gave gerty a wash



also have been cleaning up an afm
taking all the lumps bumps etc out of the air path
on completion I thought I would do some measurements to confirm the mechanism and electronics is working well

...most of the readings were good ...
that is
the air temp sensor measured in range
the multi resistor cascade across the potentiometer was also good
BUT I found some inconsistencies from the wiper of the potentiometer which follows the vane on the afm

here's what I found

according to the table in the electronic trouble shooting guide
most of my measurements fell into spec ....or there about allowing for percentage errors

pin 7-5 measured 95.2
pin 7-8 measured 352
pin 8-5 measured 360
pin 8-9 measured 203.6 at about 15 deg c going lower if you breath on it

pins 7-5 actually measure the wiper off the pot assembly
I thought to open the vane and test the movement
along its track it was going weirdly very high in resistance for only a millisecond or so and seemed to be related to change in movement
at near full open ...I think I got something like 900 ohms but it changes at it hits the end sector to about 400 something ohms
plus I couldn't get it to read the same consistent value as the vane was closed

so I had a bit of a look inside

there is a pivot pin and anvil type arrangement to make contact of the wiper to the output on pin 7


I found this contact to be faulty
or more importantly intermittent along its range of movement

carefully I got some really fine 1500 grade wet and dry and cleaned up both the pin contact and the anvil plate ...so that when measured directly across the junction the reading was a stable short circuit in all positions ....and whilst it was vibrated
later I cleaned the surfaces with deoxit gold

I also cleaned up the carbon track of the wiper ...and just to be sure, released the positioning screws that hold the assembly in relation to the vane mechanics .
this was to get a new region of carbon for the wiper to wipe across .
after relocation I locked up the screws and sealed them with nail polish ...which should hold forever
and also marked the position of the spring load position for future reference

this unit had been opened before ...and I suspect had been declared faulty and consigned to the rubbish bin

or else it must have been giving pretty weird mixtures during operation

with this work done ...I can now close the vane and achieve a reading within a couple of ohms (near 100 ) every single time

just thought I should share this for others with the 8 valve motor fitted with jettronic and afm

could save someone a packet


some of the work I did to the edges and bumps through the body of the afm



before

That's very interesting.
I might have a look at the spare ones I have here.

Hey Chas , great work and pics . Thought comes to mind , but i don't want to burden you , modern electronics could probably replace that Heath Robinson mechanical setup eh?
Just a thought , as you would say ?
An airflow module to modern standards suiting jetronic /motronic inputs ?
Plugnplay would have us all in (a new ) 7th heaven .

very true gordo ....I haven't stopped looking for one yet ....
but we have to remember that we have moved on from the early designs
as you say, the equipment has been redesigned with solid state volumetric devices  to eliminate mechanical parts ,,,thus reducing errors , servicing costs that could happen and to simplify the whole manufacturing process ,
remember halo's subaru  afm ?

after all it is just an analogue  wiper .....but there is a bit of trickery in there ...its not just a wiper across a pot ...there is all sorts of taps along the path
further investigation will help with this I hope

ill power the unit up and try and map the relative voltages as it sweeps , to see if in fact there is some form of modified curve . (I suspect there is )

the last segment I noticed drops the resistance from 900 odd ohms down to 400 or so (equal to "wot"  ) might explain why the tps "wot" switch was added ?

in any case would be far easier to move to a different ecu  which would include the injection control anyhow huh ?

but the post is intended for maintaining the standard system and developing another diagnosis to clarify some of the weird issues we see in here time to time.
cheers

Charlie, will you go back to posting in English please.

lol

sorry stan ...must remember not to speak nerdish ......too much .......doh !

Ah....back to real language...thanks Charlie.

Halo has been working on a solid state device that the BMW cars use. Called a hot film and is a thin film of some wonder material and depending how much air passes it cools a given amount.

have a look again rick

https://www.k100-forum.com/t5254-le-jetronic-injection-vs-aftermarket-ecu-and-sensors#58743
quite possibly the bmw's also use this technology ....undisputable
but the advances since the early theorys and application are really astounding eh?

hope we see halo again soon ...hes been missing for far too long

I hadn't caught up on that latest bit seems like the Subaru one works in a similar way.

You magical electronics gurus are just an awesome wonder to me! It humbles me to learn the more I learn, the less I know!

I guess what is trying to be done here is to replace the current airflow meter which has moving (spelled wear able) parts inside, with a more modern unit?

Since most of these car units are mounted on engine of substantially larger volume than out 987's I'm thinking it'll require a substantial amount of engineering to deal with calibration for our much smaller air volume????

Will this have to be built into a system that runs closed loop? I have always thought one of you guys would invent a replacement for the high altitude bypass plug substituting a MAP/BARO sensor?????

Recently, I learned from Inge that the High altitude plug only came on USA bikes.

What do all the other countries do when they get to 7000 feet and the bike runs rich????

Regards, Ibj...

no such place in aussie

Only the L jetronic have that plug the motronic doesn't use it.

You were saying about the more you learn etc.
I had this explained using a very good analagy by a professor of mathematics some time ago. He drew a circle about 2 feet in diameter on the blackboard and said this is what you know and what is outside the circle is what you dont know. Now to expand the circle you need to know what is on the outer perimiter of that circle so that to get a 4 foot circle you need to know 4 times that much and an 8 foot circle 16 times as much and so on
That way of looking at it shows that with an infite amount of knollege and an exponential curve to the learning of it what hope we have of catching up with our teenagers who know every blood thing.

Saxon7 wrote:Hmm......some good ideas and food for thought.
Yes Inge, its a car full rim. 15".
Thanks for those replies!
The idea of a removal pilot locator is a good one I think. Two to line up and then I can use the proper bolts.

I have a sidecar fitted and a 15" rear on the bike. I just lower/raise it a bit on the jack so that the rim lines up and leave the wheel on the ground. Easy.

got some spare parts from old blighty (motobins )

first on the list of things to do ...chuck those wobbly old discs

the grimeca disks came fitted with mild steel fasteners ...so changed them to stainless before fitting


also picked up some Venhill braided brake lines

the look before  


part the way through ...the lines fitted up and bled



took time to polish up all the old bolts that fit every thing together and blast them with a little clear coat ..as the road grime of the last 52,000 k was quite apparent

this is it finished ...well for now ...testing tomorrow


just have to say this forum is great .

before last Christmas, Klompy bought a fairing up here in brissy (via ebay )  to replace his main section ...with a little crack along the fibreglass.
that fairing made it to Sydney just after Christmas
the new old fairing now dully finished and painted up and on his bike..... klompys old fairing has made its way north    to singleton ...then Guyra ...then Brisbane ...then Kingaroy ..to Alby (who has been looking for one for soooo long ) he left here this morning all perky and upbeat about the whole thing ...
cheers guys   that is amazing ...!

The circle of life requires a little help at times and it is in all our interests to keep these old girls moving.

http://mondemp3.com/video_cwgWOyVn3fA____BMW-K100RS-Autobahn.html

Getting worried Charlie....you bike is getting to look TOO good.

That video makes me smile every time I see it.

Oh the joy. If only we all lived in Germany. Or the Northern Territory

bit of a run today .....those discs are amazing
nice and smooth on the slowdown ....crikey I cant remember when it felt this good


brake lines certainly give a different feel as well

Nice work Charlie!

New disks, how flash. And I thought new pads made a huge difference.

Did you get in before the dollar started to dive?

no mate ....didn't have that timing right .....was just a week or so ago and we were 61c to the pound ,,,ouch !
but still a price advantage  even so .....cost 55 pounds just for the freight out here
must look into our carrier at work ...for prepaid pickup and cost advantages

I have been told by a few suppliers over there that the freight has gone up (to overseas )  nearly 30 percent since Christmas ??? or something like that

we may have to band together to see if there is a price advantage on multiple orders sent in one parcel


thanks blakey  ...still trying to get it better mate ...its just a time and resources thing

In what way do you think the braided lines have made a difference, Charlie? More feel?

firmer pull up to pressure seanii...
as the discs - pads bed in im noticing more braking effect .... just starting to get there

charlie99 wrote:I have been told by a few suppliers over there that the freight has gone up (to overseas )  nearly 30 percent since Christmas ??? or something like that

Chris at the BM shop was having a whinge about ebay last time I was there and claimed that the chinese government is subsidising postage for all these ebay parasites so they can give free postage from china on a $2 relay, for example, and most of the delivery cost is passed onto the receiving postal group who's delivering it. We end up picking up the tab with more expensive postal fees. I mean, how can you send anything overseas for $2, forget the item.

I just went to amazon, checked out a haynes manual for the r1100rs for $35 and it came up with $69 postage on top. WTF!!!. Got it off ebay from Blighty instead for $60 delivered.

What the buggers are doing is selling the items at near cost and making the profit on post and packing because fleabay doesnt charge a percentage on the postage component of the item so the cut that ebay gets is lower than at full price and just post price
Ebay knows what is happening but cant do much without monitoring every sale.
And besides Chris Hodges would winge under wet cement.
I put some K stuff up on ebay a while ago and he offered some rediculous price for the lot so I told him I intended to make the profit this time and if he wanted the gear then pay what I was asking or get lost.
He doesnt like ebay or the net because we can now get parts at a better price and cut him out of the equasion.

No, I'm talking about the small crap that's free post from china. 
I got 5 waterproof auto connectors coming. 
Cost $3.99 with free post for 5 x 4 wire connector pairs ...
Small crap, there will be mountains of it.

I think Chris is just getting old and grumpy like me

Good onya Charlie! I got a grimeca disc for the rear last year and it was an improvement - the pads are inclided to squeal a bit under very light braking. Everything looks really good, The change to stainless fastners was a wise move too.

88

cheers Will

Ya, good job Charlie. I'm taking notes. A couple months ago I bought a boat-load of parts from a disassembled K100 (0031515) built in Nov of '85 (9 months later than mine) with just 25K miles on it.

Front brake disks on mine are getting wobbly (65K miles) too, so am planning on swapping them out next winter.

My bike came with the same brushed aluminum front forks as yours, and the replacement set from the above are the black anodized variety. I see you have upgraded to the same, and that gives me an idea of what they will look like when I'm done--brilliant!

Keep up the good work.

super day here ....and a big one
started off fighting for product at the aldi stores motorcycle gear sale ...early in the morning
 then took a run up the hill

a pic of cunninghams gap ...in sunshine ...for those that have passed through but never seen it properly (cause of rain or night )




up to ricks place

where we pulled a couple of motors apart

bloody oil seepage ...it wasn't my first blooper for this

we rescued a 12 rivet OUTPUT shaft ....which I have never seen before in the flesh ...this looked like a goodun




also checked out a k1100 head ... interesting 

 

took home a couple of dysfunctional k100 heads  sans camshafts etc  
might be able to make one good one, from the two ( with mods of course )

lots of playing coming up

got home just on 8.30 pm .... a good run home in the poor old "rolla " still in need of me painting a couple of quarter panels and fitting them up

have to go into the motor and change the oil pump real soon  so another weekend job coming up for her ...when I can get time to be home long enough

Just wondering if that BMW my work mate told me about, that was broken down on the Gap highway has an unconsious rider in the grass and missing its sump...and 12 rivet output shaft!!!  Good to see you got some parts to work with Charlie..

Came back through Cunnungham's Gap on Sunday.  I was surprised to see only one set of road works.  Must be the only place in Qld where they are working on the weekend. 

Sakson's birthday party was a buzz although the food was a bit average.

onya tackler ...would have loved to have been there ... (we have learned to take supplies ol mate... giggles )  but good onya for being there (didn't realize it was on till this week ...plans were already made a few weeks ago dang )

alby ol mate ...that 12 rivet is for one of the bloody Mexicans .....giggles ...
maybe I should have tripped tackler up on the way back huh ??


but do have something to show

2 old heads
1 reported as lossy compression on at least 2 cylinders (valves suspected )...and one with the guts ripped out of the cam shaft journals

and the cam shafts for same, as well....no shims or anything ....we'll see what happens

did a bit of polishing  to remove the rust off them ...so as to get an approximation of possible shims requirements after a valve regrind etc

seemed to polish up ok ish ....with a bit of 1200 wet and dry



....more to come

Cunninghams Gap.

Grrrrrrrrrrrrr.

Damn road caused me to stay 2 nights in a motel with some old bearded bloke and there was no beer.

Someone should park a tank on that road and leave it there without the keys.

I was going to say bomb the road, but I thought the NSA would get onto me for using the word bomb so I used tank instead.
Think I got away with it?

awww its a good hill rossko ....

did you see all the containers along side the road to stop avalanches ????   3x high x 50 -60 meters long now   its good when no trucks are in the ways


btw ...finally pulled the new brakes and lines up full force on sunday ...just out side my place

as warned by alby ...nearly spat me over the handle bars at 110 ....crikey !!!!

Good to hear they work!!!!!   Even better you didnt go through that screen you just replaced from last time!!

 What you doing a 110 in the lane for??????  OH>>Out THE FRONT!!

found some interesting things on one of the heads

the inlet adaptors  and the outlet castings were out of alignment





starting to get a little cleaner

Lookin great! Keep up the good work

still have to pull the valves  and other stuff ....but amazing what sunlight being the lighting source does to the pics  (instead of fluro light late at night )

valves look like new after the crud is mostly cleaned off ....the colour of the cylinder head coke ..kinda tells me that the system was all doing its job ok

valve grind etc yet to happen

Great work Charlie, you have done a really great job , love to see how to do a valve grind yourself (hate sending parts out for someone else to process).
Do you have to replace the valve springs etc?
Halo

Well done Charlie.....no more headaches for a while.

lol stan ....thanks mate

halo ...ill do what I think is good ...and post some pics for you as I go

fighting with my mind about a few things,  so doing some sketchy research

heres the first quandary ,.....I can find data and formulas about runner lengths versus stroke, bore and aperture of the runner
and optimum revs ......BUT
heres the thing ,  just outside the inlet port to the throttle bodies is a reduction in the rubber adaptor ...which changes the port diameter from 31.5 at the port  to 34 at the base of the throttle body (round abouts mm ).......then the throttle body ..(including butterflys ) then a fairly straight run up to the end of the ram stacks inside the plenum, all at nearly 34 - 35 mm....will post some detail soon as I draw it up (but most folks know this stuff already ...just bet you didn't notice the change in diameters within the port mount rubbers  ...um maybe )

the valve measurements and port dimensions are just begging for some opening up,  to supply a good breath of air and fuel in there

im reconning that the whole engine is detuned for longetivity as with most makes .....including the ignition advance mod ...cam lobe duration and height  and this bloody port reduction of smaller than expected size .

resonances of back pressure and wave reflection from the intake breathing into the cylinder are a real test to the brain ...there are formulas out there  but these don't line up with these little complications found in the bowls of the design .  not that its bad ...just hard to get a grip on ... as most formulas suggest free runner length equations  for those beneficial resonances and cylinder filling advantages at a particular rev range ...
but there is a bloody variable butterfly in there ...crikey ,,,that stuffs things up big time ....grin   ( nearly ..except for wide open mode ...)

im starting to think a bloody big throttle body at the start of the intake to the plenum  ...well bigger than the 34mm butterflys ... perhaps
like something off a "roller" ....(50+ mm ) ...about the same as the dimensions of the afm (45 x 42mm and 55mm round outlet ) ??? and straight tubes to the inlet port of at least 35mm diameter ???
this will get rid of the availability of the fine tuning to each cylinder and really rely on some solid flow benching to get it all "right " ...I have a feeling that this will be outside of the "puter" possibilities ...as such

so if im going to go down that path a rethink of the electronics and sensor setup will have to happen .

ill do some more homework to see if I can optimize what is standard .... swap the heads and see and document the changes to performance .

need help with a couple of things though

1> cheap dyno ...(there used to be a moble one for motor cyles round these parts ...will search a bit harder )

2> constructive criticism ...every little bit helps ...and if you have had a little tuning performance modification experience and formulars that would help

3> cut away sectional pic of the inlet and outlet port and surrounding head castings, as i guess all this research has been done before

I seem to figure all  "techos" all talk about "flow "    given that we have a legacy of design ...we cant change much using available parts, so lets optimise what we have huh ?

Work out the cross sectional area of the port at the small point yo mentioned then work out the cross sectional area of the FI injector stub and subtract the area that the butterfly shaft takes up and pounds to peanuts they are almost identical.

yeah true enough rick
but the injector stub is built into the head on the 8 valve ,,,(rather than the rubber external to the inlet port on the 16 valve )  and its is about 20 mm deep into the inlet port ....after the narrowing..... would add nothing to the flow of air into the system on suck, as it should already be full of fuel vapour from the high pressure fuel rail .and is a dead end as far as anything after initial cylinder suck down starts .

interesting to note the larger volume area of the 16 valve inlet in comparison is what im saying . (the 16 valve without measuring looks to be another 1/3  larger )

as max velocity occurs somewhere after 1/2 stroke, the fresh air suck down and induction through the port could be improved a little without the compression before the last 2 or 3  inches of flow ...compression at the valve seat might be better ...with the velocity fill effect at near closing ???

I got a couple of valves out ....(thanks to a loan of albys fantastic valve spring compression tool )

the exhaust looks pretty gummed up, but to be expected ...with not much of a visible seal on the valve face . but it was holding fluid

 

where as the inlet looks nearly new



the valves had been soaked a little whilst in the head ...with some degreaser and carbi cleaner  fluid  

some interesting machining around the ports as well





more to come ... just thought to share what I saw tonight

hmmm looks a little different with some cleaning

never seen an exhaust valve with this shape before .......I had always thought the intention was to get rid of the edges to allow maximum flow past the valve sealing face .....? is it to add some protection - strengthen the valve ? ...knowing that some crud is going to build up there

help on this one required guys ...any one know the reason ? or seen similar before ....thoughts ?

exhaust valve

inlet valve


I spied a couple of sharpish edges on the inlet path ...... just around the bottom of the machining marks on the top side of the inlet ,
which I recon could do with a little alteration to smooth out the transition .... you can see them on the left and especially right of this pic



next to make a rubberised ..(silicon ) mould of the path  to measure up the irregularities and eventually make a metal pattern insert  so that any modifications can be duplicated across all cylinders accurately.

not much I can do to the exhaust port ...as it starts off at 26.5mm and expands to 31.5 mm ...possibly just a darn good clean up ....we'll see   


also after some advise on the combustion chamber

is it a good thing to make it all smooth ....not polished ...but 400 wet and dry smooth rather than the sand cast dimples in the material
? 

I seem to think that it is the way to go , without removing too much material .
I guess I better do a volume measurement  before I start on this bit .

looking good Charlie ,  that K will pass a kwik kwater and a leaner, kleaner burn with its breathing sorted .   any ideas for filling the detonation pits around the port face?

no not yet bean ....the poor facing of the valve seat up to the combustion chamber is inherant in the actuall casting-assembly process i guess ....and i dont want to changing anything in there . (seat height versus valve and guide length )
im sure that it could be machined out by the right folks and reinstalled down flush .

this excersize is going to be just in cleaning up the airpaths and working with "what we all got" and hopefully getting a measureable outcome . 

but a good point you have and worthy of noticing .  
its good to see whats in there huh ?


addition : there is still some grubby coke hanging round the exhaust port valve seat ....as some of the work I have been doing is very late at night ...I haven't revved up the dremmel tool with suitable brush and cleaning agents
 but will do ....after I stop travelling around on the weekends.