G'day guys, you may have seen my previous posts about clutch change, new main rear seal AND a whole new transmission. I am having some issues now.



I put it all together last night and thought (which I should have done earlier) to test the gears, I had test them before putting the transmission on and they went through each gear.

With almost everything bolted back on (trans (no oil), final drive) and the bike NOT turned on, when I was torquing the rear wheel I noticed it rotating freely. From previous experience while in gear this should not move.

I placed it into gear and it continued to rotate freely by hand. 

I could only drop to what I thought was 1st and neutral.

I plugged the battery in and it came up blank, but then could see 4th after some gear changes.


What have I done wrong? I followed the manual and I followed Chris Harris' entertaining youtube clips! Could the second-hand transmission be at fault? Even though the gears went through freely before installation, had no metal in the oil and looked extremely clean. 



I think I have dealt with the fact that I need to pull it apart again, but what should I be checking?



Thanks for your help, appreciate people assisting out a noob.



Dallas

Fergawdsake, fill the transmission with oil up to spec! Did you adjust the clutch after assembly? Sometime double- or triple-clutching is necessary to shift gears in a stationary moto. Did you try that or try shifting higher, then lower?

Laitch wrote:Did you adjust the clutch after assembly? Sometime double- or triple-clutching is necessary to shift gears in a stationary moto. Did you try that or try shifting higher, then lower?

Hi, thanks for replying.

No, have not adjusted the clutch. Is the clutch a factor while the bike is NOT ON? I have read the clutch doesn't come into play while the bike is not engaged. Shouldn't you be able to rotate gears freely while stationery?

I can down gear once and hear a click, go up (kind of) feels stiff, but cannot go any further, like I am at the last gear. So maybe I am in fourth and fifth being the last?

dallasf wrote: Is the clutch a factor while the bike is NOT ON? I have read the clutch doesn't come into play while the bike is not engaged. Shouldn't you be able to rotate gears freely while stationery?

In case you missed my edit, fill the transmission with oil up to spec; do the same with the rear drive. You're liable to forget that during all this consternation and rumination, ride off when you believe your done with this task then be back here asking about mysterious noises from somewhere below the seat. When you're finished with the gear oil, adjust the clutch. 

Otherwise, I'm having difficulty understanding what you're trying to convey.

For most riders, the clutch is the major factor in shifting gears with the engine running or not running. The clutch connects the engine's output shaft to the transmission's input shaft. If the transmission is in Neutral, rotating the wheel by hand when the engine isn't running should not be too difficult depending upon your physical conditioning. Rotating the wheel by hand will take effort in increasingly greater degrees as each gear from fifth to first is engaged. Shifting gears tends to take less effort when the engine is running, but when the moto is stationary or the engine not running, double clutching is sometimes necessary.

If the clutch isn't correctly adjusted, shifting can become stubborn or impossible.

Laitch wrote:

dallasf wrote: Is the clutch a factor while the bike is NOT ON? I have read the clutch doesn't come into play while the bike is not engaged. Shouldn't you be able to rotate gears freely while stationery?

In case you missed my edit, fill the transmission with oil up to spec; do the same with the rear drive. You're liable to forget that during all this consternation and rumination, ride off when you believe your done with this task then be back here asking about mysterious noises from somewhere below the seat. When you're finished with the gear oil, adjust the clutch. 

Otherwise, I'm having difficulty understanding what you're trying to convey.

For most riders, the clutch is the major factor in shifting gears with the engine running or not running. The clutch connects the engine's output shaft to the transmission's input shaft. If the transmission is in Neutral, rotating the wheel by hand when the engine isn't running should not be too difficult depending upon your physical conditioning. Rotating the wheel by hand will take effort in increasingly greater degrees as each gear from fifth to first is engaged. Shifting gears tends to take less effort when the engine is running, but when the moto is stationary or the engine not running, double clutching is sometimes necessary.

If the clutch isn't correctly adjusted, shifting can become stubborn or impossible.

Sorry, didn't see the edit. I guess I was trying to avoid wasting oil if I had to go back in and fix something I had missed.

Sorry I haven't conveyed my issue that well, very much new to the whole process so educating myself as I go. Therefore, I may come across as uneducated.

I read a lot about the functionality of the clutch, and read that while the bike is stationary I should still be able to run through the gears easily (clutch in or out), hence why I have posted my concerns that my new gearbox is not doing that. Maybe that piece of information was not accurate.

I guess I will fill the transmission up with oil and check the clutch and suffer the loss of oil if that's what is required.

The other problem is why is it displaying 4th? Could it really be in 4th.

dallasf wrote:I guess I was trying to avoid wasting oil if I had to go back in and fix something I had missed.
The other problem is why is it displaying 4th? Could it really be in 4th.

Oil isn't wasted when it's lubricating something that should be lubricated by it. You're jumping the gun by thinking that something is wrong with the transmission. 

If it's in gear, it could be 4th gear. If it isn't in gear, then you have might have trouble with the gear indication switch—it happens. Let's not focus on that. Learn how to adjust the clutch, then adjust it.

You don't come across as uneducated; you come across as inexperienced. Either condition is treatable. 

You said "I plugged the battery in and it came up blank, but then could see 4th after some gear changes." I presume this is in the Gear position indicator in the instrument cluster. If so take no notice for the time being as that is a different problem from the rear wheel turning freely.
Manually change through the gears while rocking the rear wheel and see if it appears to have all gears. If the rear wheel still rotates freely when in gear then I suspect the clutch is disengaged and not adjusted correctly (there are many posts about the correct adjustment here). Check these things and see where you are at then we shall sort out the gear indicator problem.

RicK G wrote:You said "I plugged the battery in and it came up blank, but then could see 4th after some gear changes." I presume this is in the Gear position indicator in the instrument cluster. If so take no notice for the time being as that is a different problem from the rear wheel turning freely.
Manually change through the gears while rocking the rear wheel and see if it appears to have all gears. If the rear wheel still rotates freely when in gear then I suspect the clutch is disengaged and not adjusted correctly (there are many posts about the correct adjustment here). Check these things and see where you are at then we shall sort out the gear indicator problem.

Ok, cool, thanks guys.

Just as a precaution, I removed the final drive (etc) to get to the gearbox. I rotated the shaft and changed gears quite easily with a solid "click" in each gear and I believe I got down to 1st easily, to neutral, then up two or three gears while rotating the shaft. This has made me happy.

I then attached the clutch cable, pulled in the leaver and tried the same thing, while it didn't change as smoothly it still changed. I will try the adjustment process now and do some more reading.

I feel Chris' tutorial here is quite good. here

dallasf wrote:I removed the final drive (etc) to get to the gearbox. 

Does (etc) mean the swing arm?

Laitch wrote:

dallasf wrote:I removed the final drive (etc) to get to the gearbox. 

Does (etc) mean the swing arm?

Yep, sure does.

Good news is all gears run through from 1st to 3rd. So I decided to put oil in trans and engine to get things going to do a final test. Bad news is, while in first and releasing the clutch, nothing happens. I am just revving on the spot but gears change fine. I'm at a loss with this, feeling flat.

Before I changed the clutch and transmission I was able to accelerate without issue, I just couldn't get into 2nd.

Pulling out the clutch there was oil everywhere, so I changed the rear main seal too.

Any advice on checking anything is greatly appreciated.

dallasf wrote:

Laitch wrote:Does (etc) mean the swing arm?

Yep, sure does.

I would have just rotated the rear wheel and saved myself the tedium of torquing the shifter-side swing arm pin when remounting the swing arm. While the swing arm was off, did you look at the gear indicator switch to determine if its cover were compromised and allowing moisture to affect the switch?

Have you adjusted the clutch yet?

Laitch wrote:

dallasf wrote:

Laitch wrote:Does (etc) mean the swing arm?

Yep, sure does.

I would have just rotated the rear wheel and saved myself the tedium of torquing the shifter-side swing arm pin when remounting the swing arm. While the swing arm was off, did you look at the gear indicator switch to determine if its cover were compromised and allowing moisture to affect the switch?

Have you adjusted the clutch yet?

The rear wheel was hard to rotate, so I assumed things were looking better.

The switch is fine, I have tested this and everything looks good and is working as I shift through the gears.

I adjusted the clutch and that too was fine, I followed the Chris Harris video.

I think I am going to pull it apart again. Maybe some tips of what I should check from the clutch back?

Clutch Cable

Push Rod

dallasf wrote:The rear wheel was hard to rotate, so I assumed things were looking better.
The switch is fine, I have tested this and everything looks good and is working as I shift through the gears.
I adjusted the clutch and that too was fine.
I think I am going to pull it apart again. 

What's the problem? You assert everything is fine, except for when you asserted you released the clutch in first gear and "nothing happens." Does that mean after you release the clutch when you think you've placed the transmission in first gear, you can easily spin the rear wheel? 

Let's establish a baseline. If you turn the ignition switch to On then shift through gears, does the gear indicator in the instrument cluster show the correct gear? Does the neutral light indicate Neutral correctly?

In your pushrod video, what are you trying to convey with that video—that it's the correct pushrod? It looks like it. Where are the piston and the bearing assembly?

Laitch wrote:

dallasf wrote:The rear wheel was hard to rotate, so I assumed things were looking better.
The switch is fine, I have tested this and everything looks good and is working as I shift through the gears.
I adjusted the clutch and that too was fine.
I think I am going to pull it apart again. 

What's the problem? You assert everything is fine, except for when you asserted you released the clutch in first gear and "nothing happens." Does that mean after you release the clutch when you think you've placed the transmission in first gear, you can easily spin the rear wheel? 

Let's establish a baseline. If you turn the ignition switch to On then shift through gears, does the gear indicator in the instrument cluster show the correct gear? Does the neutral light indicate Neutral correctly?

That's why I am stumped mate. I don't what the hell is going on.

The instrument cluster is working correctly, here is what I tested:
Bike is on
Engage clutch
Place into first
Release clutch and accelerate
Clutch released fully > rear wheel not moving > its like I am in neutral and I'm not stalling with clutch released
Change gears > same problem

dallasf wrote:That's why I am stumped mate. I don't what the hell is going on.

I know this is exciting and all but can you just tell me why I don't see the piston and bearing assembly? Is it on the shop floor, on a workbench, in your hand or what?

Laitch wrote:

dallasf wrote:That's why I am stumped mate. I don't what the hell is going on.

I know this is exciting and all but can you just tell me why I don't see the piston and bearing assembly? Is it on the shop floor, on a workbench, in your hand or what?

I took out the bearing > spring > clutch boot to show that the pushrod was through to the clutch. I can reassemble and show you it working? Doesn't take long.

Funny thing is, when I put the pushrod back in now, it's not going the entire way in, the bearing won't fit! I am going to have to remove everything and find out what's going on.

I don't know if I understand this right. I think your saying you had a k75 push rod previously, so I spose you had a k75 diaphragm spring. I think you're now using a k100 push rod so you might have to change the diaphragm spring, if you haven't.

daveyson wrote:I don't know if I understand this right. I think your saying you had a k75 push rod previously, so I spose you had a k75 diaphragm spring. I think you're now using a k100 push rod so you might have to change the diaphragm spring, if you haven't.

Yes, it appeared as if it was a k75 rod, well almost 100%. See difference in rod here Probably even more evident now based on the photos I took, looks like it is a k75 spring but yet the k100 looks the same.Whats the difference here

Current spring

K75 Spring new

K100 spring new

Another k100 spint looking the same

Your current spring looks the same as mine, which is for a k100. Maybe try your original push rod, since I think that worked for you previously.

daveyson wrote:Your current spring looks the same as mine, which is for a k100. Maybe try your original push rod, since I think that worked for you previously.

The original rod was damaged on removal. Also it bothers me that I would be using a k1100 gearbox, with a potential k100 spring but a k75 rod.

I did a comparison of all the spring plates with my amazing photoshop skills here

To me there is a difference, the k100 has a raised edge. I don't know, very inexperienced here.

Happy to order a second spring from the wrecker and try that, just want to make sure of it.

I'll guess your push rod is for the spring you labelled k100,  which seems to have a greater offset, maybe that's why the push rod doesn't go in far enough. I'm pretty sure your installed spring is a k100.

daveyson wrote:I'll guess your push rod is for the spring you labelled k100,  which seems to have a greater offset, maybe that's why the push rod doesn't go in far enough. I'm pretty sure your installed spring is a k100.

Yeah maybe you are right. Problem is, which I should have mentioned it was fitting before. Not sure what has changed.

Now I am just utterly confused on what I should do. To me the K100 spring plate looks different from mine.

Yours is different to your k100 photo, but yours looks like mine which is a k100 spring. Did you remove the clutch at any time? Is the cover plate correctly seated all the way around?

I'm assuming your new push rod came with your new k1100 gearbox. Maybe that's the problem, a k1100 pushed with a k100 diaphragm spring.

Am I right in assuming your push rods are different but your damaged one worked? If so, then you probably just want another push rod.

daveyson wrote:Yours is different to your k100 photo, but yours looks like mine which is a k100 spring. Did you remove the clutch at any time? Is the cover plate correctly seated all the way around?

Am I right in assuming your push rods are different but your damaged one worked? If so, then you probably just want another push rod.

I went back to the source Chris Harris and he was doing the same process on a k100. The clutch he is working on is exactly the same as mine.

Chris Harris K100

Dallas' K100

I just added the second paragraph to my last post with while you posted. Maybe the k1100 spring if different.

Maybe later k100 and k1100 had clutch springs like in your k100 photo?

daveyson wrote:I just added the second paragraph to my last post with your last post. Maybe the k1100 spring if different.

From research, I think they are the same.

I just typed BMW k1100 clutch diaphragm spring into eBay, and see pictures like your photo labelled k100. I guess that's why your push rod doesn't go in far enough.

daveyson wrote:I just typed BMW k1100 clutch diaphragm spring into eBay, and see pictures like your photo labelled k100. I guess that's why your push rod doesn't go in far enough.

Are you saying there should be a k1100 pushrod?

You've got quite the hot mess going here, dallas.
If your group photo is of parts on the engine right now, you seem to have a K75 diaphragm spring in a K100 pressure plate, and for all I know you might have flopped the pressure plate in reassembly.  It looks like you've got the right push rod but the Brick transmissions have no bearing on which pushrod is used; it's the engines and clutches that determine the correct pushrod.




Somewhere, you've gone astray.

I'm assuming your new push rod came with your k1100 gear box, and that you need a k100 push rod to match your k100 diaphragm spring.

I'm with Laitch, it's getting hot but still under one page, you don't always get that. Laitch I think your bottom photo is for later k100 and k1100 cause like just looked for k1100 on eBay and the photos were like your bottom photo, that would make a early k100 push rod too long.

If you have put a K75 spring into a K100 clutch then that is why you cant get the pushrod back in because the K75 spring is smaller in Diameter than a K100 and the K75 spring has moved. I will say you need to remove the transmission and take pics and post them.
There is a post in a sticky about posting pics If you can use that method it saves the links being broken at a later date. Host an Image in the menu bar

RicK G wrote:If you have put a K75 spring into a K100 clutch then that is why you cant get the pushrod back in because the K75 spring is smaller in Diameter than a K100 and the K75 spring has moved. I will say you need to remove the transmission and take pics and post them.
There is a post in a sticky about posting pics If you can use that method it saves the links being broken at a later date. Host an Image in the menu bar

Agreed with all of you. I am going to remove everything again, all the way down to the spring and take photos of everything.

That way it will be easier for everyone to see whats going on.

Appreciate the assistance too.

daveyson wrote:I'm assuming your new push rod came with your k1100 gear box, and that you need a k100 push rod to match your k100 diaphragm spring.

The pushrods for the K100 and the K1100 are the same.
When this cools, put it in the refrigerator and use it for scrapple later.

Don't take aerial photos like that group photo, dallas, and use the site's photo host so we don't have to watch that damned Google spinner again.

¡Adiós, compadres!

Here's a photo of my 1986 k100 diaphragm spring, it looks like Dallas's. Did your new push rod come with your k1100 gear box?

Side view. So there seems to be two types of k100 diaphragm spring, and k1100 ones seem to have more offset, as in Laitch's bottom photo. so hopefully you only need a k100 push rod, assuming the cover plate is a snug fit. 

Ok, will make sure the photos are embedded. Apologies for doing this incorrectly.

I'll take very specific images to be 100%, I do not want to go down this path again!

Note: I did not get the pushrod with the box, had to get an extra one from a wrecker.

Ask him if you can swap it, I guess he will be familiar with this problem, but you can show him the photos if need be.

daveyson wrote:Ask him if you can swap it, I guess he will be familiar with this problem, but you can show him the photos if need be.

I am 99% I have the right pushrod for a k100, but maybe not for the clutch diaphragm.

I have done some research here and can see that my rod is a k100, about 5 posts down. Now it's just a matter of confirming the diaphragm is the right fit, I am assuming its not.

OK here is the point I'm trying to make. Your diaphragm spring looks identical to mine which is for a k100, even the part number confirms it. See how it's different to your k75 photo which you can also confirm with your workshop manual. Photos currently on eBay for a k1100 match photos from you and Laitch of a k100. You can see the greater offset in the profile photos. 

Anyways, I'm guessing you got the push rod from the Coburg wreckers, he is very familiar with bricks and when he sorts your problem the penny will drop quicker than a brides Nighty.

daveyson wrote:OK here is the point I'm trying to make. Your diaphragm spring looks identical to mine which is for a k100, even the part number confirms it. See how it's different to your k75 photo which you can also confirm with your workshop manual. Photos currently on eBay for a k1100 match photos from you and Laitch of a k100. You can see the greater offset in the profile photos. 

Anyways, I'm guessing you got the push rod from the Coburg wreckers, he is very familiar with bricks and when he sorts your problem the penny will drop quicker than a brides Nighty.

So I think this is where we are getting confused.

You and I believe I have a k100 diaphragm. Laitch thinks I have a k75 diaphragm. I am starting to think it is a K75 Time to pull it out and check.

btw I enjoyed the analogy

I'm still thinking about brides nighties. I'll try to find the connection with a push rod in due course.

I'm not very good with internet searches as you might remember when I last tried to get a definition for the phrase rough knuckle.

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I know you said no aerial photos but thought it was important to distinguish the type of clutch. I think I have k100 hardware. What are your thoughts lads?

The clutch rods you see here:
LEFT: K100 rod received from wrecker - Example here
RIGHT: Old rod broken at tip, does not look like a K75 either as its missing the step, see example link above.

134 200 f&s 4 88; your numbers on concave side. 
134 200 f&s 9 85; my numbers on concave side. 

I'll guess the third last digit is the month and the last two digits are the year. 

Numbers on convex side are way different, maybe different manufacturer.

I chucked the clutch rod into the back and pushed it through and had enough clearance for the bearing and spring. See below image with bearing in after the clutch rod.

Those pushrods are K100/1100 and the spring also K100. To me the adjuster screw looks a bit far in and that can cause the tip of the screw to ride up on the throwout bearing and hold the clutch permanently disengaged, that may have been happening. the measurement from the cable end of the actuating arm and gearcase housing is critical.

I was messing around with the adjustment before I pulled the gearbox, I'll sort that out after installation. I think I found the issue (possibly). The input shaft on the gearbox is stuck, it doesn't rotate at all. I am assuming this is why I wasn't going anywhere?

dallasf wrote:I think I have k100 hardware. What are your thoughts . . .

You need to order yourself a K100 diaphragm spring because you don't have one.
That looks like a one-piece piston/bearing combo. If it is, you need to discard any other bearing and race behind it. If you can't remove that race from the end of the pushrod in your photo, you need to order a new pushrod per the assembly instructions below.