Folks
Johnnyalpha is having problems signing in right now
so I'm putting this up on his behalf as he's struggling with his K75 at the mo'
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Good evening Folks,
I have recently been experiencing what feesl like a bit of
clutch slip, especially in higher gears on acceleration/loading.
The bike is 1988 machine, with 90K miles on the clocks. I have only had the
machine for about 15 months or so, I don't know much about the history of the
bike ,as I bought it from a dealer, who had taken it in as a part exchange.

Now, tonight I have unscrewed the clutch push rod, the threaded rod at the rear
of the bike with a 10mm head and a 13mm locknut.
There was a leak of transmission oil from the back of the rubber bellows, defo
transmission oil, smelt like one of Satans sulphurous farts :0(
Now, I take it that is NOT meant to happen?, the leak I mean.

Any ideas would be most welcomed.

The symptoms occured pretty much overnight, beforehand it had been excellent and
pulled like a train.

I am a novice when it comes to the K75 , so simple instructions/explanations
would be best :0)

I thank you all in advance

Ride safe Johnny (Edinburgh Scotland)

The problem certainly comes from the small seal installed on the push rod passage (#12).
I don't know if the gear box oil could leak on the clutch disk, but it would be a good time to check it before the clutch disk becomes totally contaminated.

Hi it's Johnny here, I got my login problems resolved, thank you very much Bert

Well, I tried the bike today with pillion and up a wee hill outside the hoose.
MMhh it started to spin up, BUT v reduced forward motion, THEN did sth very odd,
THEN it did the weirdest thing, it caught traction ,momentarily, then
there was a clunk from its innards, and seemed to like jump out of gear,
BUT it didn't, if you see what I mean.
Soooooooooo, clutch is f****d and maybe summat in the transmission too ....................:0(
BUT can't tell what is what until I get it all apart.

Have to get
the bike to the back of the house, more room, and start a strip down I
guess. I'll keep you up to date with developments.

BUT any ideas of what may have gone wrong and how to sort it very much appreciated, BUT keep it reasonably simple ,as I am a novice with K bikes.

Cheers folks, ride safe

Johnny (Edinburgh Scotland)

Could be a few things; maybe a centre torn out of the clutch disk or the FD shaft gone. Or issues with a gear fork....
Sorry, not a big help; you'll need to get us some more info.

Oh ! ta for reply.
all of that sounds "nasty". The FD should be OK as I regreased the FD splines at both ends of the drive shaft only recently. Of course I don't know anything about the innermost set of splines.

When I had the bike out today, and it played up as I described earlier, it was also stalling under load, BUT it had enough drive to get me home , about 200 yds on the level.

I know it's extrememly difficult to diagnose problems over the internet, BUT thanks very much for the input, keep it coming folks :0)

I think the only way to get to the bottom of this is to get the thing stripped down, and see what has been going on. Sadly, I don't have a garage, and will only be able to do stuff with the bike after the working day, however, I shall start the stripdown asap, and as I said keep the forum updated with what I may find.

A real bummer this as I was really getting used to the K75s, bonding as it were.
So, all the more time to ride my FJ1200 & CX500, every silver lining has a cloud, as they do say :0)

Cheers guys, and ride safe

Johnny (Edinburgh, Scotland)

Johnny I have my gearbox off the bike, clutch actuator disassembled, and the bezel off.
shout up if there's any pics I can take that might help (without stripping anything else as I'm reassembling at the moment).
Wife is off work this week so you got a few days grace before I'm allowed to disappear off to the shed and stick it all back together.

ah cheers, that's really kind, TBH I don't know exactly what I might need, I haven't been into this area of my K bike as yet,as I am new to these. CX's & FJ's I know what to expect etc.

MMhhh why don't you snap of a few of what you think I should know,look for, expect etc etc . I'll trust your judgement, as I am a novice nun with these machines. I mean a dry clutch on a bike, who would have thought ???? hehehehe :0)

cheers very much for that offer

Thanks, ride safe Johnny

Wedge
I;d do it anyway, you never know when someone may need some
pics for reference and we all like pitchers dont we?

aye indeed Mr R, pitchers are a good idea, as my 3 R's are a bit dodgy :0)
Or is that Pitchers of ice cold lager ????
mmhh nice

:0)

New to these as well, this is my first K strip but I'll get in there tomorrow and snap some pics of some of the parts mentioned by others and the bits I found tricky.

great stuff

Gents, hope you can open this page with a good description on how to get to the clutch:


http://forum.bmw-club.org.uk/viewtopic.php?t=6585

Johnny, let us know how you get on; Edinburgh is only a nice ride from here.

Right, Hopefully this is the part you mean when you say "the clutch push rod, the threaded rod at the rear
of the bike with a 10mm head and a 13mm locknut."







And the "rubber bellows" would fit on here complete with spring and jubilee clip, A leak here shouldn't cause slip but poor adjustment could replicate the symptoms if the clutch isn't fully engaging and as stated, if it leaks here there's nothing to stop it leaking at the other end. Other concerns with the leak would be the amount remaining in the gearbox and whether it's degraded.



A better pic:







The gearbox housing and swingarm. Gearbox internals would be accessed via the silver cover on the left end which I have not had to remove
The swingarm needs to be kept reasonably level on sliding this assembly off or the boot (same as on a CX more or less) can split.
Bonus to sharing a workshop with a carpenter is plenty of bits of wood around to use. Downside is the sawdust on your fresh paint doh!








The "dry" clutch, there shouldn't be any of the oil and crud you can see on the back surface around the clutch itself, but inevitably there will be some here and all around. In your case there may be a lot!!! I've cleaned as much as I'm gonna, since if I scrape any of that off the back wall and it falls into the plates I'll cry. Yes that's a yellow balloon.







This is an angled view of the relationship between the gearbox and clutch showing the main push rod which passes through the centre of the two highlighted splined areas which then mesh together. These are the areas referred to when talking about "clutch spline lubes" they need a high moly content paste (60) applied to one or the other, not both and this could be one of your problems. They may show signs of wear but are overengineered for a 75 so you might get away with clean and lube.



The long clutch push rod itself is pushed by the piston you can just see inside the silver ring here:



so any oil that gets to that rod can get straight to the clutch plates too. As I understand from the schematic posted by crazy frog this rod runs through the bottom assembly and the final drive runs off the right hand end of the top assembly but I haven't had the box apart myself so someone feel free to jump in here...

Main issue I found on disassembly, is keeping the swingarm from hinging down whilst sliding the gearbox backward all the way along that very very skinny push rod, whilst not dropping the gearbox or letting the bike fall over, whistling a happy tune, and eating a swandwich. trolleys would be good, as would trolley jacks, friends (even reggie would do here!) blind luck or divine intervention.... or, since the rod is free at both ends on a 75, just pull it out of the clutch end as soon as you have clearance to do so


Anyway, hope that helps and I haven't been patronising, dunno what half the bits are called myself
I can recommend the clutch spline videos from crazy frog in the tutorial section of this website for further info and better quality imagery

WOW ! excellent stuff, Regie in Bristol did say this was great site for being helpful. Give yourselves a collective pat on the back :0)

OK lots to absorb there, the bike has been pushed into the back yard, more elbow room, and I don't neighbours asking silly questions, just when you are @ a tricky bit :0)

So the first hing to do is strip it down and see what been going on, I suppose. Then order up what I need etc etc. So let's hope for an Indian Summer. Think I'll pitch a tent over the bike hehehehe, no seriously, I think I will.

ReneZ, ta for the offer, indeed not far, feel free to invite yourself over anytime.

ta v much folks, will give updates as & when I get round to things.

cheers, ride safe
Johnny

Great Pics Wedge
Nice one.

Dunno if its related but Johnny didnt you say just prior to all this hoo haa
you had the clutch lever go all floppy on you?

If it can happen to you then it can happen to any of us so any and all
background info could be useful

On a related note.
Never dropped a K box but I assumed rightly or wrongly, that removing the swing arm first would be
safer?
Is there an advantage to keeping it in place and whipping it off as one?

I removed a swinging arm on my old RT just for the practise and it was easy enough IIRC

Are there any schools of thought on this?

aye Reggie, about a week b4 my present woes, Brendan, Ken & I were doing a recce for the forthcoming Scottish CX rally, round Perthshire, over Ben Lawers etc. I had made a high speed, sorry I made rapid progress , alonmg the M90 to catch the lads @ Callander.
After climbing Ben Lawers, and scotting through Glen Lyion, I suddenly noticed that my Clutch lever had gone all floppy & slack. At first I thought the cable had snapped, problems was I was in 3 or 4th gear going into lots of wee twisty bits of road, mmhh not a nice experience. Finally caught the attention of the guys and stopped, and promptly stalled, I could not change gears, you see. After a lot of head scratching, we screwed out the handlebar adjuster, and realised that the lock nut at the bottom end edjuster had become loose. I threaded in the adjuster, I dread to say BUT it may have been too far :0( and nipped up the 13mm locknut.
BUT things were not 100% and I required another fiddling session before getting sufficient drive to get home. Things seemed OK for about a week, until last week ,in the Perthshire Highlands again, my clutch reallly started to slip, just made it home.
Now, I fear, through my own ignorance, that I was adjusting the clutch ALL wrong, and have probably contributed to my own woes, by allowing the clutch to spin/glaze or whatever.
Sigh, so that is roughly what happened
Dunno if it will help anyone pin down what the trouble is, maladjustement, on my part, may have made things worse.
BUT I don't understand the "floppy" handlebar clutch lever thing
cheers Johnny

Reg: In my case the job started off as a "just crack the gearbox, squeeze in and lube splines" job til I discovered just how badly the previous liars handiwork and cleaning schedule had been off the mark.

So the job turned into a stripdown with the drill being used for bolt removal almost as often as the socket wrench, and believe it or not, the engine was cleaned with a chisel to remove the concrete!!!

So I never actually got round to removing the swingarm and whenever I thought about it I just didn't fancy more drilling when I knew the bearings were good. I'd just been through the fun of dropping the head to mill out an exhaust stud and having to remove a virtually brand new camchain to do so, so I didn't want to touch the one other decent part of the bike.

Sod's law of course dictates that when it's back together the rear end will waggle like a duck's a#*

ps: brand new camchain but camchain cover attached with bathroom sealant!!!


regarding floppy clutch lever, everything in my head says the bottom adjustment would have to be about 3 yards out to produce that much slack but I may have got that the wrong way round. (bottom for coarse adjustment, bar for fine?) problem with the cable perhaps?

With the bottom one you determine the operating angle of the lever at the box (75mm). With the one at the steering you adjust cable clearance.

well I ordered the clutch kit from Motobins today.
So I'd best get the bike stripped down this weekend, and see whats what.
the story continues, I guess

ride safe everyone Johnny

If you order the good weather I might hop on the bike and see how you get on! :-)

aye fine, well I may book a day off for next wed, dunno if I can book the weather as easily ! :0)

Of course , I dunno if the stuff will arrive b4 the weekend.
You got a clutch centering tool ? :0)

inept BMW rider trying to get some drive, ignoring the lovely surroundings of Killin !!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F20h1utZLQs&playnext=1&videos=hoMni3ZEyQQ&feature=sub

Does the team know of any "substitute" for the BMW K series clutch alignment tool ?
Dodges/bodges all welcomed :0)

Have you read this post ?. It will save you a lot of headache.
A papermate felt marker will do the trick.

ah cheers mate, good one :0)

so it is the 22mm's that is the important dimension in all this ?

further down the post, it mentions 8mm bolts, is this M8 bolts ?
if so what would the pitch be ?

soooo many questions, and so much helpful advice, what a great forum :0)

Johnny

No, the 22mm diameter is not important at all. This is where you grab the centering tool with your hands. If you have bigger hands, you can have a 60mm diameter. The 6mm, 7mm and 18mm are the important ones.
Yes the bolts are M8 x 1.25 pitch (Standard ISO bolts).

A Papermate felt marker has the exact same dimension and works perfectly. I used it on a friend's bike and had great success with it.

Bert

ah , I see cheers for that. Looks like I've got a trip to a stationers coming hehehee ,thanks once more

Ride safe Johnny

One wee question, can the clutch release arm be left in position when removing the transmisson to get to the clutch?
Trying to cut out uneccessary steps to aid in changing the clutch

cheers all advice gratefully received

ride safe all Johnny

yes

wedge wrote:yes

But ..... You have to tie it up to keep the arm close to the push rod. If the arm swings out too much, it will destroy the rubber boot covering the bearing. This rubber boot is about $50 :pale:

Thanks for the extra info, my boot was already destroyed therefore I was blissfully unaware. And yes the boot is way too expensive for what it is

aha ! I see, I think hehehehe
Ta once more for the excellent replies.

Forewarned is forearmed, :0/

Right, I will keep in touch

thanks once more, ride safe Johnny


OBTW I learnt an important lesson on NOT working on assumptions.
Out on the CX about 25miles away form home. Bike backfires a biit ,then goes onto one cylinder.
Abandons trip & limp home
At home assumes that dirt had got into the jets of the dead cylinder.
Cleans out the appropriate carburettor, 3 X !!!! no joy
Just about to put tank back on and give up on the whole thing,when I see an electrical cable floating loose in the breeze................
Dash it, it's soddered lead from the LHS coil, now un soldered :0/
Doh !!!!!!!!!!!!
10 mins later bike back up & running

amazing how much of the bike has to be removed to do the clutch.
Compared with say the Honda CX clutch, where everything sits under the wee round cover exposed right at the front of the engine.

Aye, the water pump and clutch have swapped places, so your best combo is a CX with a dodgy clutch and a BMW that needs a water seal.

The other way round is a lot less fun

absolutely !

It might be a good idea to remove the clutch arm anyway to grease/check the bearings. They are a known trouble spot on Ks, because water and muck from the rear wheel is thrown onto the clutch arm causing them to corrode and sieze. The arm should be free to rotate on the shaft so that the small spring inside the rubber boot on the pushrod can move it to take up the slack in the cable. I am doing a few jobs on a friend's K75RT at the moment, and had to cut the clutch arm off with an angle grinder because it was stuck fast to the shaft, and I didn't want to get brutal and break the two mounting lugs off the back of the gearbox. When the clutch was operated the shaft was turning in the lugs instead of the arm turning on the shaft. When I did my own K100RT last year I replaced the bearings and shaft, and drilled and tapped a hole in the arm and fitted a grease nipple. The K75 will get the same treatment next week when the parts arrive.

Ta avenger for the input. I had the actuating arm apart a wee while ago, it seemed fine :0) the PO had fitted a grease nipple and it seems that he also used it :0)
Top Tip though

cheers Ride Safe Johnny

Well with the help of my mate Brendan, and my mate Colin who turned up a clutch centering tool on his lathe, I made some progress today :0)

Found the friction plate totally knackered/fubar'd etc, was starting to wear away the rivets oops ! Luckily NO sign of oil contamination of either kind,engine or transmission. The pressure plate was blued with heat, so I used the whole of the replacement clutch kit.
All seemed to go OK, but it was awkward and nerve wracking, being my first time inside a BMW engine.

Still have to attach all the electricals/battery/ECU, and also the clutch cable etc etc, time for that in the next few evenings after work.
BUT I shattered my alternator cover :0(
Now what problems would this possible casue me, if were to use the bike before I get a 2nd hand one ?

Took lots of pictures, will post these later.

cheers & thanks for all the help I got

Ride safe Johnny

If you are talking about the black plastic cover that's held on with a couple of screws, it would be no big deal until the new one arrives.

It's just there to protect the alternator a bit, but I think it's mainly for aesthetics.

Johnnyalpha,

If it's not too late, when waiting for an alternator cover, order an output shaft seal and replace it.
This is a fairly easy job and an inexpensive part. You certainly don't want to have to remove your clutch again to replace the seal. This is a good time to do it (even if it's not leaking).
You can run the bike without the alternator. It won't arm anything, but after a short time the battery will go flat. If you are able to turn off the lights, your bike may run for 3 hours with a fully charged battery (enough time to test your clutch repair)

Bert

Ta Blakey & Bert
was just wondering about the cover Bert, not the actual alternator.

Bert, I am sorry to say, that the bike is nearly all back together again :0/
I just hope I don't rue the day I didn't replace the output shaft seal :0?

You see I have no garage, and the weather in Scotland is often wet,and I couldn't leave the bike open to the elements, I had to shut it fairly swiftly.

anyhoo, I'll keep you all updated.

Thanks for all the help & encouragement

Ride safe Johnny

Johnny - just finished replacing clutch and lubbing splines on my K75 so if you have any questions (that weren't already answered by wedge's awesome pics above) you need but ask.

it's not a terribly difficult job, and can be done solo if you get someone to help you get the bike up on a sawhorse or the like (there's all kinds of good ideas about this - here's a pic of one: http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=523171).

also there's several really good articles about doing this, look in the "Drivetrain" section here: http://www.ibmwr.org/ktech.shtml

also really good info here: http://smithduck.home.comcast.net/~smithduck/bmw/tech/clutch/clutch.htm

the job as I said isn't as difficult as it may seem, there are only a couple of 'tools' that you will need: a clutch centering tool and - if you're going to do the main shaft seal (and why not?) - a seal 'tool'.

the clutch centering tool can be made up using electrical tape and a drill bit (thanks to Robert Atkinson for this one), email me for pics.
even better - here in the States the big auto-supply stores have these cheap little 'universal' clutch centering kits - one of the bushings fits exactly and using a 15/64 drill bit you can make a perfect centering tool (email me for pics).

my tranny went back on absolutely *no problem* after I centered using that second tool.

the main shaft seal tool is a bit more difficult unless you have access to a machine shop.
I made one up on a lathe - it isn't beautiful but it does the job. again email me for pics.

good luck,
bennett

Hi Guys, sorry for the delay in replying. Clautch change went well, thanks to all the advice & help I received, thanks very much.
BUT, I have had endless trouble with the clutch pushrod boot It started to drip gear oil, so I reseated it, as it was fine beforehand. Then I replaced it, twice :0(, and guess what ? Yep still dripping. Clutch is adjusted as per instructions, 75mm fee cable etc etc, this is getting very frustrating, to say the least.

Now, I was kinda surprised how much gear/tranny oil dropped out of the boot (s) when I removed them. Is there a clutch rod seal somewhere up stream of this boot ? Maybe there is just too much oil gathering in the boot,to be contained ?

I dunno, but it's irritating.

As the weather is getting autumnal here, it's not conducive to taking the gearbox back out back out to sort, I may have to leave it until next spring,to replace any other seals (if they exist), I may just ensure the gearbox is topped up, and that the leak doesn't get TOO bad, so as to contaminate the rear wheel etc.

Thanks for all the input folks, ride safe

Johnny

There is a seal for the push rod (#12 on the following picture)
The size is 9x15x4 and the BMW# is 23 21 1 451 159

ah I see. I suppose one of the symptoms of the failure of this seal is excessive oil in the clutch boot ? I don't know if this seal was damamged by the gearbox being disturbed when I chaged the clutch plates ,is that possible ?

My other guess that this is not a 5 minute job ! :0/

MMhhh, have to get one of these garage things,methinks :0)

cheers mate for the information , ride safe Johnny

There is supposed to be oil in the clutch rod booth. The rod area is sealed off towarts the clutch area with the above mentioned seal, but the rod itself needs lubrication as it moves at engine speed when it is engaged. There's a bit of gear box oil that will come into the booth and lubricate the axial bearing fitted. The fact that the booth leaks means it doesn't seal properly.

ah, got ya !
Bugger, how many o these bloomin things do I have to fit to get a seal :0(

Must be summat wrong, or sth I'm doing wrong.

Ho hum, beats watching the telly, I suppose

J

Where does it leak? You do fit the adjustment bolt end into the hole in the boot don't you?