Engine interruptions

George_Pap · 1 Engine interruptions Thu May 17, 2018 1:19 pm

George_Pap

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Number of posts : 185

Hi all. Put over 300km on my K since revival.
All within last week. 50km daily commuting plus some leisure rides. Short ones.
Everything ok until yesterday.
Getting on the bike at about 16;00, a hot day , temperature about 30 - 35C .
Warm-up for 2 minutes but idling was feeling poor. Getting on the bike a d in some traffic lights after 10min or so Iin neutral feel metallic vibration and sound like missing a gear let's say. Felt like it was coming from the final drive somewhere.
Strange. After that took my lady onboard and rode about 25 km back home. Didn't notice any noise again. Today morning 25om more to work ok. At 18:00 sunny day again , same temp as yesterday maybe more. Warning the bike a couple of minutes and I notice the Speedo needle climbing to 40 but the rear wheel not turning. On neutral , center stand.
I listen to the engine and I hear something like interruption of a sec or less and back to normal but this was repeated until took off to get my lady from her work few kms down the street.
In the traffic lights in neural again the same metallic sound like a gear trying to engage sound.. but very short and randomly occured . After a short stop to wait my passenger I get the bike on and start ..
Engine started interruptions , on off some cylinders let's say , so ii couldn't move on. Turn off and on immediately the grip kill switch bike starts . Few meters the same. Turn off and back on and rode 25km ok with no sounds noises at speeds up to 120km/h.
Stop at home , idle, and I notice again while on the center stand that Speedo climbs to 30-40km/h but the rear wheel not turning. And the tiny short interruption in axle there again. After a couple of minutes cooling fun engaged. Idle got more steady Speedo to zero as it should. No interruptions
Any ideas?
Thank you

92KK 84WW Olaf · 2 Re: Engine interruptions Thu May 17, 2018 1:26 pm

92KK 84WW Olaf

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Earths?

Under tank brown wires bolted to the frame, and above gear lever.

George_Pap · 3 Re: Engine interruptions Thu May 17, 2018 1:33 pm

George_Pap

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Aware of these and have them checked cleaed and secured

Sent from Topic'it App

K75cster · 4 Re: Engine interruptions Thu May 17, 2018 6:29 pm

K75cster

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That sounds like two different problems, the engine interruptions sound like connection issues, perhaps clean all connections in ignition and kill switch.

The gearbox issue might be a bearing on the way out, being able to hear it in neutral but not so in gear.

Perhaps the selectors are not clearing all gears when in neutral. Or the Monkey Nuts (drive rubbers) need replacing in alternator.

The K75 will make a noise if the clutch is adjusted longer than it should be. Allows the clutch gearbox lever to rattle against the muffler. Maybe noise is like that.

I don't know why the speedo is getting false signal.

audibob · 5 Engine interruptions Fri May 18, 2018 4:09 am

audibob

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I agree with K75cster about the kill and ignition switch.

My engine would cut out for a second regularly, and then would stop whilst idling, but always restarted.

Found my igiton switch contacts were very grimy.

I cleaned all the electrical connectors I could find.

No more problems.

These are old bikes now, most problems are age related, more than mileage .

Good luck

bob

George_Pap · 6 Re: Engine interruptions Fri May 18, 2018 4:32 am

George_Pap

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Number of posts : 185

Thanks for your replies.
Got to admit that ignition switch issue seems to be very interesting to investigate, given that after off/on the problem disappears, at least for a time.
Other possible causes i ve been thinking:

-Clogged injector, since they were totally clogged when i got the bike and been cleaned with ultrasonic process.
- Spark plug cables check
- Fuel pump relay?
- Dirt particles in Fuel filter

Today it happened again once in traffic lights after leaving the traffic light in 1st gear i felt irresponsive throttle. Motor started interrupting but after insisting on throttle it kept on running ok. This occured for a sec or two. After that moment and half of an hour riding everything ok.

Notes.
It seems to occur only when engine is warm
Never ocurred when i pickup the bike at morning with the bike cold ( normal weather here is 20-25c at 08:00 morning )
Since i started having this behaviour o noticed that always in the morning in starting the bike a get a smokey exhaust output for just 2 seconds and then clear and great rythmic idling. Bike always parked on centre stand.
Besides i tuned idle revs to 1000rpm (warm) after sometime in traffic i get higher (1200rpm) rough idling and hear mechanical noise from the engine like cam chain or valves ( random tick-tick-tick )

K75cster · 7 Re: Engine interruptions Fri May 18, 2018 7:11 pm

K75cster

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You have the makings of a hall effect sensor issue. But you also have the typical features of an ignition issue with someone who had kept plenty of keys on the key ring the bike used. Pressure on the key can cause over time the ignition switch to weaken its pressing on the contacts.

So it only plays up when its getting hot? That would lead many to look at the hall effect sensor. If it is cutting out then that should from memory be the sensor for pistons 1 and 4 the wires from it come over to the coil that feeds 1 and 4. They will go open when hot when they are on their way out. If you suspect that also then I'd replace both and keep the sensor for 2 and 3 as a spare, but also suspect that it might be soon to begin failing.

Why you have upped the idle to 1000rpm must be another issue. Firstly did you do that by opening all the big brass screws a little or did you use the screw in the map/flap unit??

George_Pap · 8 Re: Engine interruptions Mon May 21, 2018 3:30 am

George_Pap

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K75cster wrote:You have the makings of a hall effect sensor issue. But you also have the typical features of an ignition issue with someone who had kept plenty of keys on the key ring the bike used. Pressure on the key can cause over time the ignition switch to weaken its pressing on the contacts.

So it only plays up when its getting hot? That would lead many to look at the hall effect sensor. If it is cutting out then that should from memory be the sensor for pistons 1 and 4 the wires from it come over to the coil that feeds 1 and 4. They will go open when hot when they are on their way out. If you suspect that also then I'd replace both and keep the sensor for 2 and 3 as a spare, but also suspect that it might be soon to begin failing.

Why you have upped the idle to 1000rpm must be another issue. Firstly did you do that by opening all the big brass screws a little or did you use the screw in the map/flap unit??

Thank you. Hall effect was tested as per suggestions in this forum had no problems.
Before reading you post, this weekend i tried to solve it but got even worse.
What i did.

1. Took out the ignition switch but just took it out of the dashboard, pulled apart the rear plasti cover and inspected the soldered cable conections, looked clean so i left it as is.

2. Took out the Throttle position switch checke the clicking when turning throttle all way closed, no problem there.
But when i took it out it revealed a cracked/teared pipe from the plastic box right over the TPS going to the ( gearbox? ). It was oily inside i fixed it with some electrical tape and put it back

3. Inspected the two small diameter tubes at both sides of the injectors rail. They seemed a bit bended one of them ( the rear one ) had a spring rolled around it but a piece of that spring was missing/cut ( as i see from other K bikes )

4. Also took off the coils cover in order to access the TPS screw and found out that the coils connection plug underneath the coils had serious play. Just the plastic covers of the connectors. Sprayed them with some contact cleaner an also noticed serious play of the coils mounting rod but could not fastened it more, was really tight.I m talking about the horizontal rod on top of the coils that keep them in place.

After all these took the bike for a spin. Right after one minute and a bump of the road engine interrupted. Opening the throttle was like no fuel feeding. Iginition on - off a few meters but again the same. Noticeably in every bump of the road i hat strong interruptions. hardly managed to take bike home.

Really confused once more.
Any help appreciated!! And needed actually!
After all that i took the bike for a ride

George_Pap · 9 Re: Engine interruptions Mon May 21, 2018 3:32 am

George_Pap

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K75cster wrote:
Why you have upped the idle to 1000rpm must be another issue. Firstly did you do that by opening all the big brass screws a little or did you use the screw in the map/flap unit??

i used the screw in the center of the flap unit. did not mess with the brass screws

George_Pap · 10 Re: Engine interruptions Mon May 21, 2018 3:36 am

George_Pap

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K75cster wrote:If it is cutting out then that should from memory be the sensor for pistons 1 and 4 the wires from it come over to the coil that feeds 1 and 4. They will go open when hot when they are on their way out. If you suspect that also then I'd replace both and keep the sensor for 2 and 3 as a spare, but also suspect that it might be soon to begin failing.

Sensor for pistons? Where are these located and how do they look? I m really very prone to that something wrong there.

Inge K. · 11 Re: Engine interruptions Mon May 21, 2018 4:59 am

Inge K.

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As the problem have been worse after the fiddling it seems that one of the
things you have done is the source to the problem.

If I understand it correct you found some loose connections at the coils,
I would have started with these connections.

You also say that the coil mountings is loose...they are rubber mounted
so they shouldn't be that tight....but it could be that Your rubber Mounts
is worn or out of shape.

K75cster · 12 Re: Engine interruptions Mon May 21, 2018 5:06 am

K75cster

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The sensor for the pistons is the hall effect sensor and but pistons I mean the fuel injector as well as the coils take details from that 1 4 hall effect sensor. Sorry for being hard to read.

The issue you describe definitely sounds like the ignition. A bump in the road has always heralded the sudden short cut out effect you describe. The contacts in the ignition switch doesn't appear to have enough pressure on it to stay in contact. That's what it sounds like now.

Ignition and kill switch have caused plenty of issues over the years for people with out bikes. Must be time to tune up or repair yours. I'd have a second look mate.

George_Pap · 13 Re: Engine interruptions Mon May 21, 2018 5:09 am

George_Pap

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K75cster wrote:
Ignition and kill switch have caused plenty of issues over the years for people with out bikes. Must be time to tune up or repair yours. I'd have a second look mate.

Thank you! Any tip on how to take it apart? Should i reach the inside contacts? I ve just managed to get to the rear soldered connections but i dont think that this is the point of interest

Inge K. · 14 Re: Engine interruptions Mon May 21, 2018 5:16 am

Inge K.

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If you loose the main power through the ignition switch or kill switch for
short period of time your BMU warning light would show, if it functions as it should.

K75cster · 15 Re: Engine interruptions Mon May 21, 2018 5:34 am

K75cster

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This one has pictures that should help, https://www.k100-forum.com/t2391-ignition-switch
It will also show how grit gets in there even though it looks clean

George_Pap · 16 Re: Engine interruptions Mon May 21, 2018 7:22 am

George_Pap

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K75cster wrote:This one has pictures that should help, https://www.k100-forum.com/t2391-ignition-switch
It will also show how grit gets in there even though it looks clean

Thank you!

George_Pap · 17 Re: Engine interruptions Mon May 21, 2018 7:31 am

George_Pap

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Inge K. wrote:If you loose the main power through the ignition switch or kill switch for
short period of time your BMU warning light would show, if it functions as it should.

Sorry for the repeat but just to be sure i understand.
You say that if the interruption occurs due to ignition switch problem i should get the triangle warning light to show up in the instrument panel.
If i got it correct , then this happened yesterday. I remember having the warning light on and after pressing the front brake lever and rear brake lever the light remained on for a while but turned off a minute later

Inge K. · 18 Re: Engine interruptions Mon May 21, 2018 8:00 am

Inge K.

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George_Pap wrote:You say that if the interruption occurs due to ignition switch problem i should get the triangle warning light to show up in the instrument panel.

That is correct, but as earlier mentioned it could also be kill switch.

And the BMU warning should go out as soon you have pushed both brakes
not one minute later.
If you using lights on during daytime, then you have a problem with the
tail light bulb, holder or related wiring.

http://www.eilenberger.net/K75S/IgnitionSwitch/index.html

Last edited by Inge K. on Mon May 21, 2018 8:05 am; edited 1 time in total

George_Pap · 19 Re: Engine interruptions Mon May 21, 2018 8:05 am

George_Pap

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Inge K. wrote:

George_Pap wrote:You say that if the interruption occurs due to ignition switch problem i should get the triangle warning light to show up in the instrument panel.

That is correct, but as earlier mentioned it could also be kill switch.

Kill switch was swapped back in 1998 with a brand new one, the whole right grip switch. Also took it apart when i have swapped the front brake pump internals due to leak of brake fluid. That was a couple of weeks ago and the internals looked as new.

George_Pap · 20 Re: Engine interruptions Mon May 21, 2018 8:39 am

George_Pap

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Inge K. wrote:

And the BMU warning should go out as soon you have pushed both brakes
not one minute later.
If you using lights on during daytime, then you have a problem with the
tail light bulb, holder or related wiring.

thanks again. No, no, normally the warning light goes off immediately after activating both brakes. This delay occurred yesterday while i was having the interruptions issue. It was almost night and was uphill driving when engine stalled. Turned off ignition and back on and while i was on both brakes due to uphill position i noticed the warning light not going off. Slowly managed to start the bike with interrupted engine behaviour and it went off a minute ago.
I have no light on during daytime.

George_Pap · 21 Re: Engine interruptions Mon May 21, 2018 12:10 pm

George_Pap

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Something rather strange I noticed maybe worth mentioning.
Just came back from work and gave the bike a try to start it again. Nothing. Interruptions as before refusing to rise revs.
I have unsrewed the tank just from the rear bolt under the seat to slightly mess with cables ( worked in the past ).
Nothing. Just the same erratic engine behaviour.
Then I thought to check the fuel pump cables in the tank. Half full tank. By opening the tap saw slight smoke inside the tank. While the tap open I tried to start the bike.
Success. The bike started and idled perfectly.
So. Any chance for the smoke in the tank to affect engine like that?
For the time I m letting the engine to cool and try later tonight.

Inge K. · 22 Re: Engine interruptions Mon May 21, 2018 12:25 pm

Inge K.

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Maybe your fuel tank ventilation doesn't function as it should.
If you getting vacume inside the tank you should hear it when you opening the cap.

George_Pap · 23 Re: Engine interruptions Mon May 21, 2018 12:28 pm

George_Pap

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Inge K. wrote:Maybe Your fuel tank ventilation doesn't function as it should.
If you getting vacume inside the tank you should hear it when you opening the cap.

Inge I think this explains why this behaviour has occurred when I had the tank almost full and the bike under direct sun on hot days 30-35c . Where is the ventilation located,?

Inge K. · 24 Re: Engine interruptions Mon May 21, 2018 12:32 pm

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Under the tank at the right rear corner you have two small spigots.
The frontmost is for ventilation, the rearmost is water drain (small hole at
the left side under the fuel cap).

On your model two hoses connected to the spigots, these hoses ends up
behind/under the right footrest bridge.
Check that the hoses is open and not kinked.

You can also check the metal tubes inside the tank, connect a hose to the
spigot(s) and try to blow through.

Later models have a small cup at the frame under the spigots and one
hose down to the footrest bridge, it makes on/off with the tank much easier
as you don't have to fiddle with the hoses.

George_Pap · 25 Re: Engine interruptions Mon May 21, 2018 1:03 pm

George_Pap

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George_Pap · 26 Re: Engine interruptions Mon May 21, 2018 1:08 pm

George_Pap

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Just got it for a ride. After 10 minutes started interruptions again. I opened the tap and saw what you can see on the video. After opening the cap bike started normally again . Left the cap opened for the next 20 minutes ride and everything was fine.

As for the tank I recall these two small pipes rear right. No hoses though . Just a small tray beneath them clipped on the frame. No hoses under the plastic tray too..
Guess the great mechanic that messe with my bike did his magic once more. I m completely sure because I swapped the fuel pump myself with a new one and removed and refitted the tank myself.

Inge K. · 27 Re: Engine interruptions Mon May 21, 2018 1:48 pm

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Connect a hose and check if you can blow through the spigots.

Do you hear/feel any vacume when you opening the fuel cap?

Last edited by Inge K. on Mon May 21, 2018 1:53 pm; edited 1 time in total

George_Pap · 28 Re: Engine interruptions Mon May 21, 2018 1:53 pm

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Inge K. wrote:Connect a hose and check if you can blow through the spigots.

Unfortunately it's getting dark outside but first think after work tomorrow to pull the tank off to do that.
Really can't believe that this might be the cause of my issues. Something so simple.

Dai · 29 Re: Engine interruptions Mon May 21, 2018 2:29 pm

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Following up on Inge's comment; make sure that the fuel overflow hose is not trapped. On the right side of the tank there are two 6mm pipes; the forward one is the fuel overflow. Apart from the engine running roughly, I've seen the fuel tank contract 5mm all the way round because that hose was trapped.

Yes, it was mine and it still has the creases in..... Embarassed

George_Pap · 30 Re: Engine interruptions Mon May 21, 2018 2:52 pm

George_Pap

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Dai wrote:Yes, it was mine and it still has the creases in.....

Oh come on! This is unbelievable!!! 5mm suck?
Anyway. In my case its almost certain that i have a blocked vent pipe ( the front one ). Gas fumes are trapped in the tank, revs wont rise, interrupting engine after couple of minutes ride with the cap closed . Also there was no hose anywhere on the fuel tank when i receive the bike from the mechanic.
Just that square fame mounted cup.
Something more i recall.
Problem got worse and more often after the weekends maintenance jobs after fixing the torn and air leaking crank case breather hose.
Do they relate in any manner?

MartinW · 31 Re: Engine interruptions Mon May 21, 2018 6:14 pm

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The cup was a replacement for the two hoses. As per Inge blow through the two spigots until you clear them.
Regards Martin.

Dai · 32 Re: Engine interruptions Mon May 21, 2018 6:54 pm

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George_Pap wrote:Oh come on! This is unbelievable!!! 5mm suck?

Oh alright - maybe 5mm in the centre of the sides. It went sort of figure-8 shaped. But yes, it really was 5mm each side and the tank never really returned to the correct shape. There's still a small gap between the sides of the tank and the inner fairing panels and the creases are easily visible in daylight.

Laitch · 33 Re: Engine interruptions Mon May 21, 2018 7:52 pm

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George_Pap wrote:As for the tank I recall these two small pipes rear right. No hoses though . Just a small tray beneath them clipped on the frame. No hoses under the plastic tray too..

Really can't believe that this might be the cause of my issues. Something so simple.

Believe it.

The tray is a BMW part. There is a hose spigot attached beneath it but the hose is not necessary. My bike has a hose attached to each tank spigot and the hoses reach down to behind the right footpeg plate. Either method is good but the spigots/hoses must not be clogged.

Does your fuel cap look like this inside, George?

MarcS · 34 Re: Engine interruptions Tue May 22, 2018 3:24 am

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Dai wrote:

George_Pap wrote:Oh come on! This is unbelievable!!! 5mm suck?

Oh alright - maybe 5mm in the centre of the sides. It went sort of figure-8 shaped. But yes, it really was 5mm each side and the tank never really returned to the correct shape. There's still a small gap between the sides of the tank and the inner fairing panels and the creases are easily visible in daylight.

Pressurize the tank. I did it with a DT175 when I was about 14. Dont over do it though. Mine didn't sit right on the frame and held an extra 3 liters lol

George_Pap · 35 Re: Engine interruptions Tue May 22, 2018 3:43 am

George_Pap

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Incredible!

Any ideas where should i get a drawing or a schematic of the path of these two pipes/spigots inside the tank?
Ok, the water/gas overflow ends up to the hole on the fuel cap crown.
What about the tank ventilation pipe? where it ends inside the tank? If i blow with pressurised air or guide a bicycle gear cable through that pipe under the tank where should it exit?

Thank you

Inge K. · 36 Re: Engine interruptions Tue May 22, 2018 3:50 am

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The frontmost spigot ends up up in a metal tube with closed ends and a small
hole in the middle.
It's inside the top of the tank in front of the filler cap.

Connect a hose and try to blow to check if it's open.

George_Pap · 37 Re: Engine interruptions Tue May 22, 2018 4:45 am

George_Pap

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Inge K. wrote:The frontmost spigot ends up up in a metal tube with closed ends and a small
hole in the middle.
It's inside the top of the tank in front of the filler cap.

Connect a hose and try to blow to check if it's open.

I guess this is it Inge? The other pipe that goes in the front is the pipe that exits the fuel tank next to the fuel line to the injectors?

Inge K. · 38 Re: Engine interruptions Tue May 22, 2018 7:57 am

Inge K.

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George_Pap wrote: I guess this is it Inge?

Yes, this is from a early 1100....but it's almost similar.

George_Pap wrote: The other pipe that goes in the front is the pipe that exits the fuel tank next to the fuel line to the injectors?

That's the fuel return from the pressure regulator.

George_Pap · 39 Re: Engine interruptions Tue May 22, 2018 8:51 am

George_Pap

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Thank you !

George_Pap · 40 Re: Engine interruptions Tue May 22, 2018 11:49 am

George_Pap

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Laitch wrote:Does your fuel cap look like this inside, George?

Nope Laitch

George_Pap · 41 Re: Engine interruptions Tue May 22, 2018 11:51 am

George_Pap

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George_Pap wrote:

Laitch wrote:Does your fuel cap look like this inside, George?

Nope Laitch

George_Pap · 42 Re: Engine interruptions Tue May 22, 2018 1:01 pm

George_Pap

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Back from work and first thing -even forgot lunch- was to find a tube to attach to the front pipe under the tank and blow. No problem there. Air flow was uninterrupted .
Anyway gonna give it a try commuting to work tomorrow with the fuel cap closed and see.

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