Hi all, I've not long go back from my weeks holiday (unfortunatly never made it to york this time). Did do 1600 miles since last Saturday which included a day trip to France and Belgium on Sunday (came back this morning).

Anyway.

I've been having a few problems whilst I’ve been out riding first off I had the bike refusing to start. You press the starter and all you get is a zzt. However if I move a bit forward normally in gear with the clutch in the bike starts straight away. Whilst It's not starting I don't get any dimming, headlights turn on and work fine.

Second problem.

I was riding from Lille to Dunkirk Sunday night and over 3k revs, the headlight would dim; going to about 6k it's almost completely off. Under 3k the headlight works fine. To go with this I also have an indicator problem basically over 3k again I get sporadic hazard flashing when I press left or right. Or it only flashes once, sometimes they work like normal.

Now I've checked the battery earth and that is fine, the battery is also running at 12 volts. All bulbs are fine, they have been replaced with fresh.

Now I've heard these problems can do with the starter brushes any one think this sounds like the culprit ( The bike is my main form of transport so don't really want to take it apart if it might be something else I've overlooked.)

All that sounds like your battery to me. If its only reading 12V static its nearly dead. Should be up around 12.8V or more normally. Below 12.45V for an extended length of time will permanently damage your battery.

There are three tests you can do to your battery. DMM set to 20V DC measure across the battery terminals.

Static voltage - measure the voltage after resting for a couple of hours after a run or charger top up. If you can't maintain voltage above 12.5V after a charge the plates are stuffed.

Charging voltage - run the engine at 2k rpm or more. Voltage should be around 14V. Below 13.8 is poor. Batteries only start charging at 13.6V

Voltage under load - there are different ways to test this like leave your headlights on for 10 - 15mins. Measure the voltage while starting. Voltage should come down to around 10V and recover over a short period of time. Best to take it to a battery shop and get them to test properly.

If your battery is dead you need to ask why. It may be old, the alternator may not be charging properly, could be the wrong rating (25mAh - 360cca) or you may have a parasitic drain.

Brushes could also be very worn. Worth checking. Starter relay is suseptible to damage with a low battery also. Contacts weld together.

TheJoker wrote:
I've been having a few problems whilst I’ve been out riding first off I had the bike refusing to start. You press the starter and all you get is a zzt. However if I move a bit forward normally in gear with the clutch in the bike starts straight away. Whilst It's not starting I don't get any dimming, headlights turn on and work fine.

Now I've heard these problems can do with the starter brushes any one think this sounds like the culprit ( The bike is my main form of transport so don't really want to take it apart if it might be something else I've overlooked.)

These symptoms are classic starter related.  It could be dirty commutator that just needs a good cleaning, or it could be indicative of worn brushes.  In either case, you're going to have to open the starter motor to service it.  It's not a difficult operation.

robmack wrote:

TheJoker wrote:
I've been having a few problems whilst I’ve been out riding first off I had the bike refusing to start. You press the starter and all you get is a zzt. However if I move a bit forward normally in gear with the clutch in the bike starts straight away. Whilst It's not starting I don't get any dimming, headlights turn on and work fine.

Now I've heard these problems can do with the starter brushes any one think this sounds like the culprit ( The bike is my main form of transport so don't really want to take it apart if it might be something else I've overlooked.)

These symptoms are classic starter related.  It could be dirty commutator that just needs a good cleaning, or it could be indicative of worn brushes.  In either case, you're going to have to open the starter motor to service it.  It's not a difficult operation.

That's what I've kinda suspected just didn't really want to go down that route if it could have been something else. I'm on late working this week so I'll pull it out at the weekend. Just hope the brushes aren't that bad.

Although I did check the battery again and I'm getting 12.54 turned off and 12.34 when the bike is running. Which I though supposed to be about 14 when it's running if I'm correct.

Starter motor will be coming out anyway rather be safe than sorry whilst I've got the time.

I'd be hoping it was the starter brushes because it's one of the cheapest and easiest fixes on the K you'll evr do.

12.54V is very different to the 12V in your OP but still, at that its only just hangin' in there.

12.34V while running (I suspect while idling) doesn't tell you anything. The alternator doesn't kick in till around 1800rpm so at idle its just discharging as the engine ticks over. If that was at 2000rpm then I'd say you have a problem with your voltage regulator/brushes.

Kaptain Holister wrote:... If that was at 2000rpm then I'd say you have a problem with your voltage regulator/brushes.

And Kaptain Holister means "alternator brushes"; not starter brushes, to avoid any confusion.

aye ! agree rob

However if I move a bit forward normally in gear with the clutch in the bike starts straight away.

Does this happen every time? Does your green neutral light come on? Clutch switch?

Either way doing those brushes is always a good move, it is not difficult and with the age of the K its a case of when they go, not if.

Kaptain Holister wrote:I'd be hoping it was the starter brushes because it's one of the cheapest and easiest fixes on the K you'll evr do.

12.54V is very different to the 12V in your OP but still, at that its only just hangin' in there.

12.34V while running (I suspect while idling) doesn't tell you anything. The alternator doesn't kick in till around 1800rpm so at idle its just discharging as the engine ticks over. If that was at 2000rpm then I'd say you have a problem with your voltage regulator/brushes.

I knew it was over 12volts just couldn't remember the number exactly, I checked it with a friend before we went to France for the day. Checked it again yesterday to just write in the thread the accurate percentage.

The battery isn't the best on there at the moment it's a cheap one and I was missing a side panel so rain could get into the side of the battery. Most probably caused a bit of damage right there (that's covered now).

92KK 84WW Olaf wrote:However if I move a bit forward normally in gear with the clutch in the bike starts straight away.

Does this happen every time? Does your green neutral light come on? Clutch switch?

Either way doing those brushes is always a good move, it is not difficult and with the age of the K its a case of when they go, not if.

This has sorted out the starting so far the 3 times it's happened. Everything works normally though (headlights horn etc), neutral light is on however I don't have a clutch switch on mine I believe (84). 

It did happen the other day and I stayed in neutral moved it forwards slightly and it started before you would just get the zzt like there wasn't a connection.


The starter will come out at the weekend, I'm only doing a few short trips at the moment. Gives me more time to look and sort the problem instead of rushing into it and trying to get it done before I have to get work.

My RT is 84 and it does have the clutch switch, can see it up at the clutch lever. It looks the same as the brake light switch so possible its interchangeable as a test.


Not sure when it was changed it to a side stand switch which is what the 92LT has got.

Yes, Olaf they all have the clutch switch to prevent the starter engaging when in gear without the clutch operated.

But, the 'moving forward in gear' bit sounds to me as though the starter sprag clutch is sticking and being released by a bit of movement.

Using a high detergent 'diesel' oil for a while can help to clean the sprag clutch.

Paul.

sidecar paul wrote:Yes, Olaf they all have the clutch switch to prevent the starter engaging when in gear without the clutch operated.

But, the 'moving forward in gear' bit sounds to me as though the starter sprag clutch is sticking and being released by a bit of movement.

Using a high detergent 'diesel' oil for a while can help to clean the sprag clutch.

Paul.

Oops I apologize then never noticed it before at the moment I've got some classic 20w 50 in it; Millers oil. It was the oil that motorworks sold when I did the clutch replacement. Any specific oils that you would recommend save going through all the oils to check for certain qualities

Ooh 20W50 doesn't sound right. I have 10W40 in the RT and no problems even in 35C.

A lot of posts on the sprag clutch and oil and Sidecar Paul is on the money with his post. I would swap out the oil as SP suggested and going on the threads here that should cure it.

92KK 84WW Olaf wrote:Ooh 20W50 doesn't sound right. I have 10W40 in the RT and no problems even in 35C.

A lot of posts on the sprag clutch and oil and Sidecar Paul is on the money with his post. I would swap out the oil as SP suggested and going on the threads here that should cure it.

That's the one motorworks have on their website that is available to order under the k100 section. I did actually phone up to check on a certain part and they advised it over the phone. However saying that I did have an engine oil leak (fairing bolt came loose) so 10w40 is in it now; as that's all my friend had at the time.

Latest oil recommendations for old K's that I have (2007) says:
10W-40 can be used from -10^oC up to 30^oC.
20W-50 can be used from 0^oC to above 30^oC.

Hi Inge,

Guess Ringfad is headed up your direction.......lucky guys!

We don't get much at 0c or below, also not much above 30c here. Most of our riding, even all year, would tend to be 5c to about 15c except daytime in summer when we can get to 25c. Over 25c is rare enough.

I think most of us do use the 10W40 but truthfully I have never checked on using 20W50 as my friend ex BMW always goes 10W40.

I use whatever grade I get my hands on, providing it's a brand name. But then I can be very lazy about some things.

Joker, there's no problem with the oils you are using, but if the starter sprag clutch is 'gummed up' then running a high detergent diesel oil for a thousand miles or so can sometimes clean out the clutch and restore it's function. 

Paul.

92KK 84WW Olaf wrote:Hi Inge,

Guess Ringfad is headed up your direction.......lucky guys!

Did meet Ringfad and his travel companion on a roadhouse close to the airport on Saturday,
they are coming to my place on Monday.

good to hear Inge ...

have fun with those guys when you get to meet

wish I could be there also ...but ...not this year I'm afraid ....grin

charlie99 wrote:have fun with those guys when you get to meet

A hot barbeque and enough cold beers.......what could possibly go wrong?
.
.
.
Got a Message from Ringfad...they had plenty of coldies yesterday in Copenhagen
.....resting this day.
.
So they're allready warmed up and ready for some more beer.......

Inge,

Hope you guys have a great day up there today......

92KK 84WW Olaf wrote:Inge,

Hope you guys have a great day up there today......

It was a nice evevsgi evening...........




Frans (N, Tempo Safir), Vidar (N, K1100LT), Simon (IRL, K1100RS), Tom (IRL, R100RS).

Well I've been ill so haven't been able to get on with the starter motor, today I did manage to take the right hand switch apart. My friend came over who owns a k75 and he mentioned that a problem could be with the starter button.

Now I've taken it apart and cleaned it there was corrosion behind the starter button, however it seems like the corrosion was holding some of the parts together. So now I've got another problem.

Can you change the switch gear from later models  

My indicator cancel switch has come loose and now won't work correctly you have to pull it back out whilst riding, I'm not really prepared to pay new so was going for a second hand switch set. However not really many to be found that are 1984.

Also can you get a spare fuse box (that holds the actual fuses)



I'm not on about the plastic cover but the actual place where the fuses connect to, I've found out that on two of the fuse holders (indicators and fuel pump) there is a spade missing which means they are not making a full connection.

First, Sorry for stealing your thread............

TheJoker wrote:
Can you change the switch gear from later models  

All 2V models is identical, 4V's have a different connector.

TheJoker wrote:
Also can you get a spare fuse box (that holds the actual fuses)

If you mean the female spade terminal, it's a part of the wiring system.
I'll would guess they are just pushed into the relay box, open it and check.
It's a small tang that should lock it in place, it could be that this tang
is bent out of position or missing.

If you need to crimp new connectors on, they are available from Vehicle Wiring Products. This one, I think:

http://www.vehicle-wiring-products.eu/product.php/750/terminals-for-micro-standard-relays-4-8mm-blade

I hate the crap design of the original fusebox. As soon as you pull the lid off every fuse comes with it and invariably one disappears forever. Mine is now in a landfill site somewhere; I replaced it with a decent 8-way Durite. However, it's not a drop fit and involves replacing all of the existing connectors as well as cutting out the side of the relay box.

Thank you for the replies, also I don't mind the hacking of the thread;as long as help is given. Well anyway back on topic.

..

I've taken the starter motor apart(everything looked brand new), now back together and it started. Turned the power off and it comes back with the same problem now If I remember correctly I only had this problem since I did the clutch rebuild. So I'm thinking it's just a loose terminal.

I'll set about on the fuse box next week, for now they are sturdy enough however might go down the route of just replacing it.



Dai if you have any images of yours I'd love to see them.

EDIT

I've just checked the bike again now I've got no horn or any indicator on the left hand side. Damn I hate electrical problems. Fuses checked nothing wrong, switched around with brand new still nothing.

Check the fuses with a meter I have seen quite a few of the blade type go open circuit but not blow and you cant see the break in the conductor. I have had one myself and now replace them every few years.
The OEM fuses in the earlyer Ks seem OK but are made differently.

Both horn and flasher unit get their power from fuse #7 but that wouldn't cause only the left side to stop working... so I'm thinking there's a problem with the switches. They're easy to test with a DMM and best done before you pull them apart.
There is only one earth connection on the L/H switch block which provides a return earth for the horn and L/H indicator switches. I'd say that's where your problem is. The connector is under the tank.

I think your starting issue is separate.

Did you measure the starter brushes? They may be worn past their service limit.

Where's the "zzt" coming from? fuel pump, starter turning but not engaging, a relay not actuating properly??

RicK G wrote:Check the fuses with a meter I have seen quite a few of the blade type go open circuit but not blow and you cant see the break in the conductor. I have had one myself and now replace them every few years.
The OEM fuses in the earlyer Ks seem OK but are made differently.

I replaced all the fuses with brand new still nothing.

Kaptain Holister wrote:Both horn and flasher unit get their power from fuse #7 but that wouldn't cause only the left side to stop working... so I'm thinking there's a problem with the switches. They're easy to test with a DMM and best done before you pull them apart.
There is only one earth connection on the L/H switch block which provides a return earth for the horn and L/H indicator switches. I'd say that's where your problem is. The connector is under the tank.

I think your starting issue is separate.

Did you measure the starter brushes? They may be worn past their service limit.

Where's the "zzt" coming from? fuel pump, starter turning but not engaging, a relay not actuating properly??

I'll check the earth you have mentioned tomorrow though I can't see how that could be the cause. The horn was working before I took off the starter motor. I did a ride on the bike on Tuesday for about 15 miles and it was working fine.

I didn't measure the starter brushes but as the bike started fine after I pulled it apart and put it back together; I doubt that could be the problem.

I did lift up the tank and pressed the starter which got me a solid click from the starter relay, also when I turn the ignition on I can hear the whirring of the fuel pump. It seems like the zzt is coming from the starter relay under the tank.

The only thing I can think of left;
1. Is bridging the starter motor to the positive on the battery see if it can get it started.
2. Checking spark plugs (yes I know I should of checked but my plug spanner doesn't fit on order)
3. Getting help to bump start (not the biggest guy) and then getting some detergent in it (hope it's the sprag clutch.

I possible can you record the noise on a video and post a youtube link to it here so we can have a listen?

Mike

zzt from a relay is not right. A click or no click but zzt suggests something is not right in it. Those relays [starter relay and load shed relay] also affect earthing.......I feel that if it was the fuel relay it would not affect the engine turning over so my thought is the starter relay. I do have one that could be swapped but maybe someone closer?

Could the switch button contact be a problem resulting in intermittent power to the relay?

92KK 84WW Olaf wrote:zzt from a relay is not right. A click or no click but zzt suggests something is not right in it. Those relays [starter relay and load shed relay] also affect earthing.......I feel that if it was the fuel relay it would not affect the engine turning over so my thought is the starter relay. I do have one that could be swapped but maybe someone closer?

Could the switch button contact be a problem resulting in intermittent power to the relay?

The only person I know with a BMW motorcycle is either 70 miles away and 80 (there are two). I'll try record the sound my phone and camera aren't very good though.


Bike now Starts

Took the starter motor back apart had a hunch that the problem was something I had done wrong on it. So pulled it gave it another clean and put it back together. Found out during this that one of the bushes that connects to the bolt had a ruptured seal so it was making a full connection (insulating tape around it). My house mate who also rides checked it against a multimeter and got 12Volts all the way through the starter.

Tried it with a power lead connected to the battery and it wouldn't start. So we attached a set of jump leads to the battery and onto the starter motor (one to the frame) bingo the starter motor was spinning. Did it a few times just to check. Then put it back into the bike.

The bike is now starting first time every time (here is me hoping now that I'm writing this).