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1Back to top Go down   A Cautionary Tale Empty A Cautionary Tale Mon Jan 04, 2010 5:56 pm

Comberjohn

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Don't forget the small stuff.
A few weeks ago, I was having a nice winter run on a Saturday afternnon. It was cool but bright and I was looking forward to stopping for lunch in about ten miles at a place called Ballycastle on the N Antrim coast. Ah bliss.
Was just overtaking a couple of dawdling cars with the legendary K100 torque when...nothing. Engine completely died.
All lights on, engine spinning over, but nothing.
Had the bike recovered to a local garage and had to borrow a van couple of days later to get it the 70 miles home. Time and money!
Got it home. Sparks ok. Tank connector ok. But couldn't hear the fuel pump when starter pressed. Could be expensive.
As it turned out I didn't need to remove the tank but decided to upgrade the headlight wiring while I was at it.
Drained the tank, removed the filler cap and the fuel filter. Nasty black liquid drained out of filter inlet.
Before I go any further, its time to 'fess up. I have never changed the fuel filter in the last 16k miles and I don't know when it was done before that. There, feel better now.
Convinced that the fuel pump was knackered, I extracted it. What a mess!
The vibration damping slieve that holds the pump was disintegrating in my hand and the nylon gauze on the bottom of the pump had cracked and was full of holes. There was a substantial black residue on the gauze also. Think this what had clogged up the fuel filter.
I wired up the pump (with long wires because of the petrol in it) and tapped it on to the battery. It started whirring away and pumped out a little petrol. Hurrah!
I tried to blow through the old fuel filter and could hardly get it to pass any air, whereas the new one had little resistance.
The moral of the story is, change the fuel filter when you are supposed to and, if you have the time, pull out the pump and check the vibration damper and gauze. The damper is made of rubber and may have spent 20 years or more immersed in petrol.
I've learned my lesson.

http://www.johnsdrivingschool.co
    

2Back to top Go down   A Cautionary Tale Empty Re: A Cautionary Tale Tue Jan 05, 2010 4:46 pm

K-BIKE

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Thanks for that John,
The lesson we all should take is that 19 of those years in the petrol did nothing but the alcohol they are mixing into petrol nowadays was what probably did the damage turning the rubber into the nasty mess. I would be inclined to ask your fuel company for compensation.

Here in NZ when they changed the fuel there was a rash of highly expensive failures to parts of fuel injection systems in cars and pressure from motorists got the fuel companies to compensate them in full for the cost of the repairs. Not sure if you will be equally lucky but it is worth a try especially if you can get a few of you together to all apply pressure, you may be successful.

As John says it is a cautionary tale and for those living in countries where pressure lobbies have forced the introduction of alcohol into petrol it pays to regularly check the condition of the rubber in the tank, as a failure similar to that John experienced could well have very dangerous consequences. I am sure we all feel thankful he was lucky that time. Next time for one of us though it might not be so good.

John, was there anything that you could see staring down into the tank which could be used as a diagnostic warning for others so we can check, or do we have to drain and remove to see the evidence?
Regards,
K-BIKE

    

3Back to top Go down   A Cautionary Tale Empty Re: A Cautionary Tale Tue Jan 05, 2010 6:01 pm

Comberjohn

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Hi K-BIKE.
No, there is nothing to see. Fortunately, the fuel lines inside the tank seem unaffected.
Looking back over the story I feel that there are several aspects to it.
Had I changed the fuel filter when I should have, at least the engine would not have cut out. So, regular maintenance should eliminate that problem.
I think the only way to keep an eye on the pump damper is to inspect it, say, every other fuel filter change. When you are changing the filter, its only the work of a few minutes to disconnect the pump connections and extract it. You could try to reach into the tank and see if you can 'pinch' the rubber damper. If its breaking down it will feel like putty.
I suppose I was more concerned about the potential damage that it could have done. The gauze basket on the base of the pump had several splits and part of the frame had snapped. Not sure if that was a result of an increase in vibration or alcohol effects. This allowed a considerable amount of rubber residue through the pump to be trapped by the filter. I'm lucky the pump still works.
The adding alcohol to petrol problem is new to us. We are more used to looking out for dodgy diesel which has had its dye filtered. Usually badly, which wrecks the fuel pump.
What has happened in NZ about this problem?

http://www.johnsdrivingschool.co
    

4Back to top Go down   A Cautionary Tale Empty Re: A Cautionary Tale Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:28 am

K-BIKE

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Hi John,
Fortunately that has not eventuated here, under the Labour party there was some push for it and Gull sold it for a while and even Mobil was stated to be keen but there is nothing on Mobil's website about it (the link is now dead.

I suspect we dodged that bullet but the poor old US taxpayer has to continue to fund the biofuel growers to allow them to add the alcohol without increasing the pump price. Bit of a bugger really it damages components in fuel systems, it is less efficient and it costs more, the good news just keeps coming!

Regards,
K-BIKE

    

5Back to top Go down   A Cautionary Tale Empty Re: A Cautionary Tale Thu Jan 07, 2010 1:28 am

blaKey

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Around where I live (SE corner of Queensland), there are an ever increasing number of petrol stations that are changing from plain unleaded to E10 unleaded (10% ethanol).
I am not going to use the E10 if I can help it as I don't trust it in my bike.
Am I being paranoid or is the E10 "fairly safe" to use?


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Neil
K100RS 1986 RED!

Dress for the ride and the potential slide.
    

6Back to top Go down   A Cautionary Tale Empty Re: A Cautionary Tale Thu Jan 07, 2010 4:01 am

K-BIKE

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Hi Neil,
From what I gather from the US there is anecdotal evidence of decomposition of the vibration damper in the tank especially if the bike is unused for a period.

However our colleague Comberjohn has actually had the vibration damper turn to goo - not good. I think you are wise to avoid it if you can.

May be worth from the point of view of assuring yourself of the best evidence to write to the fuel company to ask them for their written assurance that it will not harm any part of your fuel system including rubber parts. Then if you are forced to use it and do suffer a problem then at least you have some opportunity to use their statement against them (if they will give it).
Regards,
K-BIKE

    

7Back to top Go down   A Cautionary Tale Empty Re: A Cautionary Tale Thu Jan 07, 2010 2:08 pm

Comberjohn

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It seems that in the UK we have been using petrol with a 3.75% ethanol but that is due to rise to 5% this year(2010). In France they use 10% and some UK papers have reported problems with holidaymakers vehicles when they return to the UK.
The generally publicised information is that any vehicle should run on 5% and any vehicle manufactured after 2000 can use 10%.
In the USA oil companies are accepting government subsidies to mix in more ethanol and at the same time, dragging their feet about supplying it and encouraging anti-ethanol information.
One of the reasons they give is the expense of providing seperate tanks and pumps at filling stations as both types of fuel can't use the same equipment. Pipe corrosion can also be a problem!
Incidently, if you think we have problems, consider the problems boat owners now face as many petrol powered boats have glass fibre tanks moulded into the hull. In the USA, where they have been using it longer, there are reports of ethanol attacking sealants as well as the glassfibre itself. Now, that is a problem.
Was reading an article in December's Classic Bike which highlighted that a glassfibre tank maker had to withdraw a Royal Enfield model after a new tank had failed after 3 months and dumped a gallon of petrol. The replacement failed as well.
That would be scary if you happened to be riding it at the time.
If you have an older bike or off-roader with a glassfibre tank, it may be time to check it out. Seems the first indicator of a problem is a sticky gum in the carb.
Think I'll order up a couple of K pump dampers while they are still available!

http://www.johnsdrivingschool.co
    

8Back to top Go down   A Cautionary Tale Empty Re: A Cautionary Tale Thu Jan 07, 2010 4:42 pm

K-BIKE

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Hi Folks,
That has got to be one of the most sensible things I have read, get a couple of the vibration dampers now before they go to the NLA status in the parts catalogue. Also a spare gauze filter at the bottom of the pump.
Regards,
K-BIKE

    

9Back to top Go down   A Cautionary Tale Empty Re: A Cautionary Tale Thu Jan 07, 2010 8:22 pm

blaKey

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"Think I'll order up a couple of K pump dampers while they are still available!"

Holy cow! What sort of money do you guys earn?

I've been quoted A$350 for one!

Maybe if I sell a kidney, I can buy a couple...


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Neil
K100RS 1986 RED!

Dress for the ride and the potential slide.
    

10Back to top Go down   A Cautionary Tale Empty Re: A Cautionary Tale Thu Jan 07, 2010 11:17 pm

K-BIKE

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Hi Neil,
Real OEM in the US has them at $99 US, part of the problem in Aus and NZ is that rapacious greedy distributors in Australia secure the agency for products for Australasia and then GOUGE both their own fellow citizens and NZ citizens.

That is changing with the Internet where we can find out the real price and order in from the US or even Germany without paying the greedy distributor. One could understand some mark-up if they kept stock but often they order them in from Germany!

Volvo is another example of the same thing in action, Volvo spares come from Europe to Aus then to NZ as a consequence they are hugely expensive, brake discs for example for our Volvo are DOUBLE the price of genuine Mercedes Benz brake discs and it is the same with all other MB parts compared to Volvo. I now get my Volvo bits from the US.
Regards,
K-BIKE

    

11Back to top Go down   A Cautionary Tale Empty Re: A Cautionary Tale Fri Jan 08, 2010 10:37 am

Crazy Frog

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Check this for an alternative to Bosh fuel pump


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A Cautionary Tale Frog15A Cautionary Tale Logo2101986 k75, 1985 K100rt, 1985 K100rt/EML GT2 sidecar, 1999 K1200lt/Hannigan Astro Sport sidecar.
    

12Back to top Go down   A Cautionary Tale Empty Re: A Cautionary Tale Fri Jan 08, 2010 11:15 am

Comberjohn

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Moto-bins in the UK list them at about £40 inc tax or A$60.
You guys want sunshine and cheap parts!

http://www.johnsdrivingschool.co
    

13Back to top Go down   A Cautionary Tale Empty Re: A Cautionary Tale Fri Jan 08, 2010 11:55 am

green cat

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For the 10% in France it's true but it began to cause many problems.. we ha ve here Two kinds of unleaded, called sp95 and SP98.. there are lots of petrol stations in which SP95 not E10 is available. In Germany they banned the E10, and i hope it'll be the same here. I'm in the south of France and petrol without ethanol is still available but i've lot of friends in Paris who face the problem and have to use SP98, much more expensive.... For motobikes it's a probleme and for some cars too, so we are waiting for our government to go back to normal petrol. Just have to wait for.


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