While attempting to remove the waterpump for a rebuild I've stripped the socket head on the long RECESSED bolt inside the pump. So how to remove this one now?

groan .....thats a hard one club c....

pics maybe ?


i wonder if its possible to get some small cutting wheel in there and make a slot accross the bolt head ?



but from what your describing its down the bottom of a well... which may mean that youll have to take to it with a good sharp drill and loads of patience .....the aim being to drill the head off ....and only the head .

once the assembly can be removed you can look at grabing the shaft with some vice grips etc and creating some rotational movement .



there are tools like a cam type shaft grabber for stud removal that may be neccessary .



hope ths helps

One of the allen head mounting bolts?

Drill the head of, and remove the rest of the bolt with a wisegrip,
when the pump assy is of the bike.

Inge K.

Thot of the slot cutting but no room. Enough room to get a welder tip in there but might as well drill off the head as discussed. It's just weeping right now so this looks like an off season job now. Anyone know the size of that bolt? Nice to have it in hand before starting.

M6 x 60

Inge K.

Nice.

Try driving a torx socket into the head of the bolt. It gives much better grip than the hex type.

Inge K is on the right track,... take a 1/4" (6.5mm) masonry bit and sharpen the tungsten carbide inserts using a silicon carbide wheel (the soft green/grey coloured one). Apply some cutting fluid and push firmly and you'll drill the head off the sucker. Slip the pump housing off then remove the bolt shank. The masonry bit trick works well with all high tensile bolts as long as you can sharpen them properly.

Avenger GT wrote:Try driving a torx socket into the head of the bolt. It gives much better grip than the hex type.

Shoulda done that the first time. I have this great new 18V cordless impact driver and it is the bestest most awesomest tool ever. Unless you don't quite get the allen head straight in the bolt and pull the trigger. It rounds out the hex hole real quick. (ask me how I know).



On the flip side, it made short work of the 2 million bolts holding the tupperware covering the front end of my R1150RT today.

tut tut, clubbie ....we always give a tap to the top of those gnarly 6mm allen head engine bolts BEFORE beginning to undo them DONT WE ?





giggles

Finally onto the waterpump re-seal. Used a really good 1/4" drill bit for stainless application and it twisted off that bolt head in seconds. Waterpump is sitting on my bench now waiting to reinstall.

Question: The original shaft seems tight in the new seals, doesn't spin super freely. Is this to be expected and will sort itself out once there is coolant and oil back in the pump and it's turning at several 1000 rpm? I haven't reinstalled yet, awaiting your sage advice before buttoning it up.

YES! Initially it doesn't feel like 'spinning freely', but that's the seal being properly pressed on the sealing surface. Fit it and ride it - have fun!

And for those others lurking out there reading, Throw away your rattle guns.

club_c wrote:Used a really good 1/4" drill bit for stainless application and it twisted off that bolt head in seconds.

I think that was mentioned rather early in the thread.
Good that get it sorted out.

Inge K.

Yup, Dennis suggested it. Worked really well...

So I've buttoned up the oil/water pump with new seals and refilled the system. And have a coolant drip out the weep hole. I haven't run it yet as I'm doing other maintenance, but am I going to have to do it again? Or does it run in?

Run In probably not but do keep us up to date as I have to do one on the Ol Grey Hundred before the new owner picks it up (surely it could have waited a few more months).

So was able to flash up the RS today, and the pump is leaking like a basket from the weep hole. Guess I'll have to go back in again. Not happy...

I can see why some folk just suck-it-up and buy the whole water/oil pump and chuck it on.

Probably the rich folk. I am not part of the rich folk scene, so when the time comes, I'll have a go at rebuilding it myself.

Sorry to hear of your misfortune club_c. We'll all be waiting to see what the teardown reveals.

When I was driving the shaft into the new seal, the seal kinda pulled apart at spring part. I reassembled anyhow, but now think I must have damaged the seal...

good luck clubbie ...second times a charm

OK, this is why you need to pull the shaft through the seal instead of pushing it. If you push it nothing holds the seal back (particularly the part that'll seal on the shaft) and you could stretch it or allow it to 'snap' in place in such a way that the ceramic ring breaks. You need to pull the shaft through the seal during which you have rings/spacers between the bolt head and the seal. This allows for a continued pull-through, whilst supporting the part that seals on the shaft. You can grease the shaft slightly to allow easier movement (I know it says not to grease the shaft, but the seal is stationary on the shaft, a little (!) bit of grease won't matter). If this is unclear let us know and I'll try to explain differently.

club_c wrote:When I was driving the shaft into the new seal, the seal kinda pulled apart at spring part. I reassembled anyhow, but now think I must have damaged the seal...

Driving it Arrrggh its like hitting the best china with a hammer, it will break every time. As Rene said it needs to be pulled through by basiclt using a bolt and tightening it while it pulls the seal through. The Haynes has a bit on it. In the downloads there is a good article on it on how to use a bolt to do the job.

Alright, I'm back in the WP trenches again. I 'jacked Charlie's WP thread earlier and you may recall my SECOND attempt to replace the seals ended up with more grief, leaking loads of oil on run up, and coolant on shutdown.

So I've got the pump on the bench again, and the coolant seal fell apart as soon as the shaft was out, so I tore it apart on shaft install - again. Dunno about the oil leaking, the seal seemed ok.

Hand fitting the new oil seal onto the shaft ever so gently (not yet mounted in the pump) it's an easy slide. It seems to me it should fit very snug??? Or will that occur when I seat the seal in the housing. I'm going SLOOOOWWW and easy here so I can button this up one final time. The pitting I referred to earlier is not at the seal portion but ahead of it, and tho pitted, doesn't feel sharp.

Comments?

I have just run into problems with my pump and the problem is that the spacer behind the impeller is not made correctly and wont put enough pressure if any ay all on the water seal to make it seal. This also makes the impeller too far from the pump surface to get good pressure. The impeller needs to go in about another millimetre.
Clubie did you get a kit with the pressed steel impeller and spacer or you just installing the old impeller because in my case neither fit properly and both can break the seal. The new pressed one will allow the seal to chatter and break and the old cast impeller will break the seal as soon as the engine is running.
I intend to ring Motobins this evening and find out if they already know about this issue.

I've got the original style cast impeller with the nut on the end of the shaft. Interesting points Freak. I'm glad I'm not the only one with water pump performance anxiety. Please post your results when you hear back from MB. Ill hold off until I hear more. Bedtime here anyhow.

If you are using the new type of water seal it will bust the seal every time. you may need to get a bit machined from the back off the impeller.
I shall get back ASAP

Hmmmm. How much taken off do you recon?

At a guess at the moment about 2-3mm. I dont have a pump with the nut here only the bolt type but any good engineering shop would be able to work it out.

i can scan the motobins advice sheet and post it (came with the kit )

but wont be for a couple of days (away job tomorrow but might make it back in time )



hadnt thought about the difference between the bolt and nut on the shaft type and the other way round ...i had thought they were all bolt goes into shaft to hold the impeller ?

charlie99 wrote:i can scan the motobins advice sheet and post it (came with the kit )

but wont be for a couple of days (away job tomorrow but might make it back in time )



hadnt thought about the difference between the bolt and nut on the shaft type and the other way round ...i had thought they were all bolt goes into shaft to hold the impeller ?

You can't buy the shaft with the nut or the seal that fits with it. The new seals are a very different type and are a bit thicker than the old ones. I am looking at putting the cast impeller back but I want to contact motobins before hand so they know that things are not good with those seals and kits. On Thursday I will be in Toowoomba and will try to find the seals and O rings and then with a light machine of the impeller the cost goes way down.

Little update:- Motobins didnt sound interested, the usual we always sell the correct stuff etc.
The problem I have is that the steel spacer that goes between the seal inner and the impeller was not sitting down on the shaft far enough by 1.5mm.
First of all I noticed the oil pump gear was sitting proud of the case and there was a bad grating noise on rotating the impeller/oil pump gear. This was caused because the impeller wasn't sitting down far enough and not putting pressure on the seal and so the spring was vibrating as it was rotated and if the pump gear was pushed down it would try to stretch the spring then it would bind and cause it to get very stiff to turn.
I machined 1.5mm from the inside of the spacer which allowed it to sit down and put the correct tension on the seal and now the extra tension has made the gear sit level with the surface and the pump to turn quietly and easily.
Club-c I havent done the work to find how much to take of the cast impeller but I am not far off it and will get back.
An Update for Club-c I machined 3mm from the back of the impeller boss so that it doesnt push the seal too far into the body and crush it and it is like goldilocks porridge just right. I would take it to an engineering workshop and show the experts what is happening and set them to do the job (it needs a lathe).
I also had a chat to one of my mates here who restores vintage cars etc, he says the original seals should still be available and gave me a part number straight of the top so we may be able to just replace the oil and water seal with what is original sizes.
I will know a heck of a lot more by tomorrow afternoon.

Wow, great work guys!

Looking forward to this.

Ok, I'm confused. Oil seal goes in first, then the coolant seal, then pull the shaft through. Regarding the spacer, does that live behind the impeller once the shaft is pulled into place? I hardly think there is room for it, it seemed the impeller was banging up against the seal without it.

Sorry my mistake. The spacer is only used on the pressed steel impeller to take place of the heavy centre boss on the cast impeller.You should put the oil seal in with the flat side of the seal towards the water pump (it actually has a small raised edge but is flat compared to the oil side which is made like that so the oil pressure pushes in on the seal lip and helps it seal) then the water seal (it can only go one way) then either the cast impeller or the spacer and pressed steel impeller.
The cast impeller needs to have 3mm machined from the side that sits against the seal.
Did you buy a kit or just the seals and is the seal a black one or a stainless steel one?

Ok thanks that makes more sense. I have the 3 seals and spacer. Oil seal is black and coolant seal is stainless (?).

Taking the impeller in now for a 3mm reduction. No wonder the seal was breaking if I was trying to fit 3 mm of impeller onto it.

hope this helps ....



at least you can see what motobins sends with the kit

I just got home from Toowoomba and no luck with the seals. I tried a few places but the idiots behind the counter ask what's it out of and when I say BMW motorcycle they say have you tried the bike shops. I sometimes feel like saying yeah mate but I just come here to make life difficult.
They won't just look in the book that has listings of waterpump seals and measure it and find one to do the job.Some of them would be underqualified to hold a stop/go sign at roadworks and wouldn't have the brains to get up if they were sitting on their gonads.
Anyhow I shall be getting to the big smoke soon and will see if I can find anything there.

thats a bit harsh K-freak you have to be "qualified " now to be a lollipop man !!! and they get a minimum of $25 / hour to play god on the road

Toto_jp wrote:thats a bit harsh K-freak you have to be "qualified " now to be a lollipop man !!! and they get a minimum of $25 / hour to play god on the road

hmm pensioner work ?....planning an early retirement me thinks ,,,giggle

Toto_jp wrote:thats a bit harsh K-freak you have to be "qualified " now to be a lollipop man !!! and they get a minimum of $25 / hour to play god on the road

Well I suppose I shouldn't be like that just because nature played a lousy trick on thier parents.
I spent a few hours searching and some have shown up but now it just needs a supplier so I can get one.

the cbc distributors are pretty good down here .....i have a local shop that doesnt ask what its for pretty much ...just try to help out ...but they are interested to see results in any case ...usually just ask for the application to gain a jist for the build material .

the one at archerfield airport terminals is the one i use ...just down the road from rs components..... beaty road ?

its to hard for them to actually try and find a part that will fit they only know how to type in model and make into computer
gone are the days when people actually had an idea of what they sell and how to work out if something else will fit
i try not to tell them what its from unless i really have to

The impeller has now been taken down 3 mm at a ridiculous cost of $50 (yes I know, waaay too much) and I'm considering the reassembly. Up till now I was mounting the impeller after the pump was reinstalled, but this time I will mount it once the seals are in place before the pump reinstall. What am I watching for now, assuming I've installed the seals correctly? I assume there should be no contact between the seal and the impeller?

My recollection of the reassembly is that the impeller puts tension onto the spring, which in turn mates the seal faces.
Last did mine 2 years ago so the brain may have faded some

Thanks for that. I really want to solve this for the final time. Probably could have bought a new complete pump for what I've put into seals three times and machining.

club_c wrote:Thanks for that. I really want to solve this for the final time. Probably could have bought a new complete pump for what I've put into seals three times and machining.

Apparently many do just buy a new pump. The telling thing will be how easy it is to turn the pump. You should be able to turn it easily but if you try to give it a spin it will not spin freely in that it should stop as soon as the force is removed. If you can spin it then it is loose. The impeller should sit about 0.4 - 0.5mm (about a fingernail) from the face of the casting and you should be able to push it down to the face but it should spring away as soon as released.

Ok. What about the impeller boss touching the face of the seal?

It is meant to touch, that holds the seal in the correct place with tension on the seal face from the spring in the seal.