Hi guys,

Have a problem with my 1985 K100 8v.

When you rack the throttle hard, the engine will bog or stutter - and even more so under load. Yet if you gradually open her up, she pulls very strongly.

Shes had new plugs, leads, fuel pump, filter, hoses, regulator, air filter, and i've had the injectors cleaned and tested.

The fuel pressure is spot on according to my gauge.


Any ideas? I rebuilt this bike from boxes of bits, so know the bike quite well - but cant guess why this is likely to be happening.

ToGGoT

Hi there, as all the fuel supply is working ok, I can think of three reasons: Bad ignition triger advance
Stuck air mass meter flap
Bad HT coil connection
Best regards
JAP

im with jap ...sounds like an advance/ignition problem to me ....but we have seen recently that the electrical connections on the air flow meter (maf) require cleaning or at least checking

I am also thinking that a bad fuel filter could generate this type of problem. I had read somewhere that it was a problem with a batch of the BMW one collapsing.
If you replaced it, have you paid attention to the way you installed it. There is an arrow indicating the direction of the flow.
A good pressure doesn't indicates a good flow and your engine may be starving for fuel.
What fuel grade are you filling up the tank with? A lower grade of fuel may causes problems too.
Sometimes things as simple as a bad spark plug cap will generate the same problem.

Also, try to start your bike in a dark area and check if you see any sparks on the coils. You can even mist them with water (when the engine is off) and it will make it easier to see if you have a crack in the insulation.

CF

FWIW I am thinking the fuel regulator / air flow metering unit could be stiff and responding slowly, that would result in the symptoms you describe. Have you checked it is moving freely?
Regards,
K-BIKE

To me that means it is not getting an enriched mixture at the initial throttle opening which is neccessary for a petrol engine.
Firstly I would look for a leak in a manifold, even lose clamps on the rubber stacks. The next is a bad pressure regulator, that makes the fuel richen when the manifold pressure drops off and so would make it bog on initial throttle opening.
Ignition timing is a possibility but to me unlikely as the Ks usually stay put and if they go bad they just stop dead or run really sour.

Air leaks are always a possibility but given it can be wound up slowly where the air leak would be the same I still think the air flow metering is more likely to be the issue. Is the resistance change smooth as the flap moves?
Regards,
K-BIKE

Ok, well lots of different possibilities then!

FlyingBrick forum suggested an air leak around the throttle bodies, or they are well out of balance (They aren't - i balanced them at the end of the rebuild, but it cant hurt to check now they've got 500 miles on them) - but i must check all the valve clearances first.

As the bike is stripped and dry at the moment, i'm going to work through each bit at a time, and see if i can find anything.

Will do the valve check/adjust first, then dig out the air flow meter (Which i have to admit is where my logic puts the fault). What am i looking for/how do i test it please?

Thanks

ToGGoT

Put your meter (pointer type) on the terminals and move the vane how smoothly/easily does it move is the resistance change smooth or does the needle hop up and down as it moves?
Regards,
K-BIKE

Ok, interesting progress.

I got the MAF sensor out this morning and tested it (12v across 5-8, and volt test 5-7) And i get a smooth change between 2 and 12v. So that looks to be fine.

I discovered the TPS switch was stuck in the open position, so i adjusted that properly, but it didnt make any difference.

Put it all back together, and checked for leaks around the TB rubbers, airbox, and plenum - found nothing.

Checked the engine breather hose, and the vacuum hose from TB4, and both are fine - no cracks.

Checked the coils, and HT leads - all the connections are good, and there do not appear to be any sparks/shorts.


So at this point i put it all back together, and it was exactly the same. Before i packed it in, i thought i would see what happens if i severely restrict the amount of air the engine gets. So i stuffed a rag in the inlet pipe by the radiator, and fired her up again.

She revs fine when you crack the throttle from nothing. Its not right, and doesn't idle properly/dies eventually, but surely that does suggest a fuel starvation issue if the issue does not exist when you remove most of the air...

ToGGoT

OK, from that I gather that the air/fuel mixture becomes too lean when you ref her up. This can mean a few things; partially blocked fuel filter, faulty pump (worm or leaking relief valve), tank not properly breathing, ehh, no doubt there's more. Other thing might be that your coolingwater temperature sensor gives a wrong signal and therefore the ECU gives too little fuel.
Take the return fuel line off the tank (extend it/other hose) and put it in a container. Then start the bike and ref her up. See if the return line keeps flowing, even if you ref it; that would secure sufficient pressure through the range (i.e. fuel pump and filter allow sufficient flow). See what that gets you.

Found this post tonight and as I am getting increasingly frustrated by a similar problem with my 1985 K100 RT I thought that I would join the discussion in the hope that somebody could come up with something that I haven't tried yet.

Brief history: After a successful tour of Europe in 2009 (3,500 miles) I was really impressed with my ageing finest year K100 - she carried me without issue around most of Europe and kept up fairly well with 3 fairly modern sportsbikes ridden by young chaps, despite having a seized radiator fan (I discovered this when stuck in Monaco rush hour traffic in 40 degree heat) Once I realised that I had this issue I found that by carrying water with me and trying to always keep moving, thereby ensuring air flow through the rad, that I had no further issues and the bike got me safely back to the UK without further issues - the fan was replaced upon my return to UK. About 6 months ago I had some issues with a fuel leak which caused me to replace the fuel tank (somebody had obviously bodged/welded the fuel tank outlet and it simply gave up the ghost). Ordered new FI hose and a good clean replacement tank, swapped out and fitted fuel pump from old tank to "new" tank, fitted new fuel filter and all was well for about a week. Then the bike suddenly started bogging down/missing and feeling like she was only firing on 3 cylinders. I figured that during the course of changing tank/fuel lines etc. that maybe a small piece of the old rubber fuel line had got down into an injector and was causing the problem. I had no more time to investigate the problem for quite a while due to pressures of work etc. and the fact that I also have two other motorcyles that I could ride (K1100LT and Kawasaki KZ1100 Spectre). I have recently come back to this job and it seemed a logical progression to get the injectors cleaned/serviced etc. to eliminate the above mentioned. I just got all the newly serviced injectors fitted today and was very hopeful that all would now be well again with the old K. Once the fuel had refilled the lines the bike fired up instantly using the fast idle lever and ticked over happily, until I started to apply some throttle ! Then it was as if we were back to square one again. After turning the bike off and waiting a few minutes she would start perfectly and would rev normally on application of throttle - nice smooth progressive revs. After only a few minutes though we were back to the old scenario again - engine very reluctant to pick up revs and felt like missing on one cylinder/lack of power etc. I have, during the course of this very frustrating period replaced any parts that I thought (by browsing such forums as this) might be suspect and yet I am now back at square one again. I hope that you won't regard me as trying to hijack this post (I know how annoying that can be as I run a forum myself - www.westcountryrideouts.co.uk) - but it seems that the original poster is suffering from the same/similar issues to myself. Hopefully with your users help we can both resolve our bike problems :|

Well it seems that your problem is heat related.
The hall sensors are known to fail when getting warm.
Here is what I would do:
Try to start the bike when cold to prove that it's working correctly. (You may want to try this a couple of time).
Walk away from the bike for a couple of hours to let it cool down.
When you come back, open the cover of the hall sensors, and start to heat them with a hair dryer (The operating temperature is listed between -40 to + 160 degrees Celsius). When you feel that they are warm (around 60 degrees), start the bike and give some throttle. If it fails, you know that one of the Hall sensors has a problem.
The other problem may be the water temperature sensor.
Please let us know what you find.

CF

Thanks for your rapid response CF - I will do as you suggest and post the results of the tests on HES

P. S. I renewed the Cooling Water Temperature Sensor when I first came back to this job

hmm interseting findings toggot.....
i have heard of the air flow sensor return springs failing /become weak (or maladjusted) although i have never seen it myself...i guess the whole thing just gets replaced .

..if by blocking the air intake you have restricted the amount of flow through the maf ...although now you can open up the throttle bodies fully to match the possible maf position .

is there a chance that you could find another maf device and compare your spring tension to it ?
i would imagine that getting a tension measuring device might be a little hard ,,and besides that, i have never seen specs for what it should be i guess 1 bar would be appropriate . so i guess a comparison might help out .

just a thought

Hi Folks,

I am in the process of rebuilding an RS from a barn find, I have had this problem and it was fuel. if there is any old fuel stains or other things in your tank, then the new fuel will slowly disolve them and force it into the filter which then cant deliver the volume of fuel required ,although the pressure may say it is correct. I have now cleaned out the filter three times and it is only a short cure (10 mins) until i completely cleaned out the tank by hand with clean thinners / rag / air line and er indoors old vacuum with a special flexi nozzle. If it is an older tank there may be some black goo from the pump rubber mount around the tank. It was akward to do and several hours work but a clean tank and filter at the same time seemed to do the trick. hope this helps.

Following Crazy Frog's advice I finally got around to testing the HES on my K100RT (1985). I heated the area up well and truly from a cold engine scenario with a hairdryer as suggested. (I am assuming at this point that the area pictured is in fact the HES and not some other mysterious BMW component). It can be seen from the pics that there is some evidence of ingress of moisture, some rust etc. However, after heating the area quite vigorously with the hairdryer, the engine started perfectly (with fast idle lever on) and responded/revved normally on application of throttle for around a minute and then she started bogging/missing on application of throttle as before.

This leads me to believe that the HES is not the problem ! I am getting increasingly frustrated by this issue and would welcome any more pointers in order that I can get this old K up and running properly again.

I recall a friends VW Beetle which had the same symptoms and it turned out to be a dud coil which was fine at room temperature but when hot the car was missfiring. We finally checked the coil in a beaker of oil and wheb heated at about 60C the coil would act up. A changed coil fixed that.
Regards,
K-BIKE

K-BIKE wrote:I recall a friends VW Beetle which had the same symptoms and it turned out to be a dud coil which was fine at room temperature but when hot the car was missfiring. We finally checked the coil in a beaker of oil and wheb heated at about 60C the coil would act up. A changed coil fixed that.
Regards,
K-BIKE

I have some spare coils kicking around so I might try them anyway. This is turning into a very lengthy diagnostics session

I managed to find a couple of hours this afternoon to return to this ongoing problem. When I arrived at the garage I set the fast idle to midway and pressed the starter, as expected the bike started perfectly and was responsive to the throttle. After the usual minute or so of running normally and responding to throttle normally, again as per usual she started bogging down and running rough. After reading an unconnected post on this forum I decided to check tank venting etc. I removed the fuel filler cap assembly etc. to give me better access to the drain hole etc. propped the rear of the tank up a bit to access both vent outlet pipes (neither has a pipe connected just now as this is a replacement tank). Mangaged to attach a pipe to both outlets and blew through pipe. Both pipes were clear of obstructions and I could blow through them easily. As I now had the tank propped up I could see the tank internals much more clearly so I figured I would start the bike and listen/observe inner tank activity with engine running. Engine started and ran normally as expected so I got my torch and peered inside tank - to start with and with bike running normally I could clearly see fuel being returned to tank near front left so revved the engine a bit to see what might happen when bike started bogging down as expected. Just as the bike started the usual rough running nonsense I was able to see quite clearly that there was no longer any fuel returning to the tank, just a few air bubbles etc. When engine was running normally there was clearly fuel flow back to tank but not any longer. To me this seems highly significant but I am unsure exactly how to interpret what this might signify from a diagnostic point of view. However, I view this as a major breakthrough and am hoping that someone on this great forum whose knowledge is greater than mine will be able to tell me what this means and possibly suggest a way forward. I feel that I have nearly reached the summit of this tiring and frustrating mountain climb. I await your input with bated breath

With what you describe it means to me that the pump is not delivering sufficient fuel. An other bike I'm currently working on had exactly the same. Just enough flow/pressure to 'lift' the pressure regulator, but nothing more. New pump fixed that problem. At idle you should have a good flow back into the tank, but more importantly you should always have flow back into the tank, otherwise the pump is not delivering sufficient volume at pressure.

Hi Krambo,

It does seem like your problem is fuel volume - I posted my first post when i saw you had this problem,as i have just had the same. These bikes with the fuel injection system etc is very sensitive to many things, if you have no fuel return into the tank then its unlikely the fuel rail is getting enough flow. I found that putting a vacuum cleaner on the end of fuel filter sucked out some muck but it is well worth going through the whole system as it only takes the slightest to stop it all working well. James sherlock in south molton north devon has an excellent mail order service for parts , thankfully i am close to them.

i would remove the pump and filter 1st thoroughly clean both ( you should be able to blow easily through filter) . gently blow through with comp air through the fuel line past the rail - refit and try again. if before you do that, have you checked the injector plugs are all tight? I also pulled out my rail with the injectors still in rail, removed plugs to reduce compression and then turned over the engine by starter to see if each injector sprayed fuel, obviously be carefull of petrol on the floor as the squirt a foot or so. hope this helps - apart from fairing access it takes about an hour and half - good luck

IPJ100 wrote:Hi Krambo,

It does seem like your problem is fuel volume - I posted my first post when i saw you had this problem,as i have just had the same. These bikes with the fuel injection system etc is very sensitive to many things, if you have no fuel return into the tank then its unlikely the fuel rail is getting enough flow. I found that putting a vacuum cleaner on the end of fuel filter sucked out some muck but it is well worth going through the whole system as it only takes the slightest to stop it all working well. James sherlock in south molton north devon has an excellent mail order service for parts , thankfully i am close to them.

i would remove the pump and filter 1st thoroughly clean both ( you should be able to blow easily through filter) . gently blow through with comp air through the fuel line past the rail - refit and try again. if before you do that, have you checked the injector plugs are all tight? I also pulled out my rail with the injectors still in rail, removed plugs to reduce compression and then turned over the engine by starter to see if each injector sprayed fuel, obviously be carefull of petrol on the floor as the squirt a foot or so. hope this helps - apart from fairing access it takes about an hour and half - good luck

Thank you for your response IPJ100 - nice to see that there is another brick rider close to me. Bearing in mind that this issue initially ocurred before I changed the fuel tank for a replacement, using the same fuel pump, I am starting to think that you are likely on the right track with your observations. I know that the injectors are working properly as I just had them tested and cleaned by Pete at Biketech Services in Padstow - good spray pattern and all rubbers replaced at same time. I was starting to lean towards the fuel pressure regulator as being the problem but now you have set me to thinking. Maybe a replacement fuel pump is the way forward. I won't buy from James Sherlock as I find the man to be a rude individual who charges way over the odds for parts, however I think I will try to source a replacement fuel pump from elsewhere and possibly replace the FPR at the same time. Thank you for your input, maybe we will meet up at some point soon via www.westcountryrideouts.co.uk P.S. All the fairings and plastics have been off the bike for months so no time required there.

Renez - thank you for your reply. I have followed many of your posts with interest since I became a member here and trust your judgement. As posted above I will try to source a replacement fuel pump and probably change the fuel filter again at the same time (I have a new one in stock). You quite rightly pointed out that there should "always" be a return to the tank from the fuel line, not just at tickover. I think I am very nearly there with this issue and will post back when funds/time allow me to test this theory. Thanks again for your reply

Hi Krambo,

hope your brick is nearer to flying again - I'm off for an MOT this afternoon on mine. I think we have cured the RS's bogging problem but will find out properly when i put the tank on tonight. will look around this site more later and see where and when westcountryrideouts are about etc. There a quite a few old brick's around thankfully - especially round here. Sounds like you had bad yime with sherlocks, I also use moto bins and motorworks, they all seem pricy on some items and cheap on others, but never cheap on what you need!! price fixing 21st century style!

Regards Ian

Ian - thanks for your reply and good luck with the MOT. I am firmly convinced now that my problems are indeed fuel flow related and will proceed accordingly. Have got my eye on a K100 fuel pump on eBay but auction doesn't finish for 8 days yet. Funny enough the guy selling is someone that I have bought parts from recently so I contacted hime to see if we could do a deal. Unfortunately he wants to let the auction run to the end. It seems a shame that I don't live in the USA as the NAPA replacement pump seems to be a good option. Have searched high and low for a supplier here in the UK with no success, so if anyone knows where I could source an alternative pump I would be grateful. I cannot afford to spend £160.00 on a new pump from Motorworks or Motobins. Thanks again for your input - maybe we will meet up at some point

No need to buy genuine or second hand . Many cars fitted with the bosch fuel injection from the same era will have a pump that is the same specs.
I got one from FUEL MISER who make aftermarket parts for all sorts of systems and it fitted the bill perfectly for about 1/3 of the genuine price.
Many of the fords have bosch injection. That is a good starting point. In US many use a pump of a Mustang but am not sure which model. Usually your local auto shop will have one that will do the job.

i fitted one out of a toyota ....worked for me .....

Thanks for the advice both - I will get pump removed from tank and take it around local auto supply shops to see if anybody can come up with a suitable replacement. Am assuming that if part number/size/voltage is the same as mine then it will work, regardless of which vehicle it was meant for originally ?

Hi there, youll need something that fits and "small" modern engine car, 1200-1600 cc. around 100 hp. You´lll find that they all are more or less the same size and shape.
Best regards
JAP

Thanks for your input JAP

There are some out of the locally built fords that are smaller in diameter than the genuine but we just use 2 cable ties to hold them into the original rubber thingy and have not had any trouble. And the filter is a bit different but it does fit OK.

Mine has no original support, the bare pump is fited inside the tank's supporting hole with ruber pieces, the strain as deep as possible (with out touching the tank bottom). Works fine last 25000kmts.
Best regards
JAP

The link below may give a bit of an insite.... It is from an American that replaced his.

http://www.mychamp.com/K100/4/

Great idea isn't it!

Yeah, it's a shame that the NAPA website doesn't list the vehicles that the part fits, as it would have taken a chunk of the hunting for the right part out of the window. Eurocarparts over here tends to list what vehicle a part will fit on the parts page!

Hi Krambo,

My Rs is running sweet now that i have fully cleaned and flushed out the fuel system - great at last! It may be possible to get your pump cleaned by a pro. They do injectors and such like by ultrasonic cleansing, if the pump tries to run if you connect direct to a 12v supply then you may have a good chance or if you have comressed air you can sometime blow out dirt that may be stopping the impeller - also solvent worked for mine,leave to soak a day or so, i am told that usually the pumps work or not and the filters are the trouble - also check mesh basket at bottom of pump. I was going to get a s/h pump from him you dislike for 60 quid but fought it out on ebay and got one for 72 instead !! it is a principle thing, don't tell er indoors. good luck. I've still not looked at web site for westcountryrideouts but must soon and get out for a trek! regards Ian

Hi Ian

Thanks again for your input and really happy to hear that you have resolved your issues. I spent a good part of today carting my pump around scrapyards and local auto suppliers in an attempt to find a cheaper replacement that the £160 asked by Motobins/Motorworks etc. I also have my eye on a secondhand pump on eBay. Out of interest, what "solvent" did you soak your pump in ? Clearly it wasn't the answer as you have now replaced your pump if I read your post correctly. I did have a brief flirtation with the idea of taking the pump from my 1993 K1100LT and hanging it into my K100 tank temporarily just to see if I get a positive result - I might try that tomorrow just for the hell of it. My mesh filter is clean and good so no issues there either. If you fancy a rideout this Easter Sunday please take a look on www.moorlandersmcc.co.uk for details. I have been asked to help marshall this ride again and the weather looks promising. Hope to catch up soon

One of the ways to clean these pumps if they still spin over is to connect them up in some gas outside the tank and run them in reverse that often shifts crud out of them. Then flush with clean in the correct direction, as always watch out for sparks!
Regards,
K-BIKE

Hi krambo,

K-bikes last idea helped mine too, I have two K's running and one with a few bits left to salvage or start another rebuild. Sadly all the consumables and stuff i needed for no2 bike were also shot on no3 so i couldn't offer you a spare pump to have tried out. The solvent and reverse polarity worked on no1 bike and is still fine, I used thinners actually to start with and then a pot of redex and left to soak, the redex was a small bottle one shot for a tank of fuel (car size tank) but as it was only a few quid and it said that it cleans injectors etc whilst running i thought it could do no harm and it did not. I'll look at the moorland run for sunday, but sadly (complicated issue) my insurance starts on tuesday as i've swapped bike from my zzr1100 back to the k's this year and brother in law is taking over the RS at the same time so i'm bikeless this weekend as for the sake of 4 days i didn't want to loose a years no claims and start a new policy on friday - i said it was complicated. weekend after though we'll be out in force and may head down cornwall, if so i'll let you know. regards Ian

IPJ100 wrote:Hi krambo,

K-bikes last idea helped mine too, I have two K's running and one with a few bits left to salvage or start another rebuild. Sadly all the consumables and stuff i needed for no2 bike were also shot on no3 so i couldn't offer you a spare pump to have tried out. The solvent and reverse polarity worked on no1 bike and is still fine, I used thinners actually to start with and then a pot of redex and left to soak, the redex was a small bottle one shot for a tank of fuel (car size tank) but as it was only a few quid and it said that it cleans injectors etc whilst running i thought it could do no harm and it did not. I'll look at the moorland run for sunday, but sadly (complicated issue) my insurance starts on tuesday as i've swapped bike from my zzr1100 back to the k's this year and brother in law is taking over the RS at the same time so i'm bikeless this weekend as for the sake of 4 days i didn't want to loose a years no claims and start a new policy on friday - i said it was complicated. weekend after though we'll be out in force and may head down cornwall, if so i'll let you know. regards Ian

I will look forward to meeting up with you sometime this summer Ian - I will most likely be riding my summer bike though (Kawasaki KZ1100) as the BMW's can be ongoing projects through the summer months and probably won't bother to tax/insure either. It would be nice to have them both running properly and ready for the Autumn/Winter months though as the full fairing is a blessing in the colder/wetter months

Hi krambo,

Theres a fuel pump on ebay from a guy in taunton somerset, in case this is different from the one your already bidding on, I've dealt with him before and he is sound! probably because he's called Ian too!!
look forward to catch up with you on a summer rideout.

Ian

Already on that one Ian - thanks anyway though

A quick update - have not had time during this summer to go back to the problem with my K100 but as I now have a little time available I will "have another go". I noticed that there was a brand new/old stock genuine fuel pump on eBay UK and I bid up to £65.00 on it - it finally sold for £95.00 + P & P. I knew that several other fuel pumps from cars can do the job so started searching around again. Managed to locate a new/old stock pump for a Peugeot 205 1.6 GTi - it looks identical to our pump and had a buy it now price of £59.99. Needless to say I snapped it up and am waiting for it to arrive. I will report back with any progress when I find the time to fit/test it

good one krambo ....lets hope you have a good result ...

cheers

I had a problem similar to whats described in the post above but in my case we had hot starting issues but once it started it ran ok. Then my engine is under constant load so bogging down does not occur in the same way. I thought it was HES, we tried ventilating the HES to allow it to stay cool but that did not help. Any test carried out when the engine was cold were ok, everything working as it should. Tried a coil swap, no good, then discovered that I had no fuel in the return line when the fuel pump was warm. The pump was dying!! but strangely would work ok once the engine was running. We tried cleaning the pump , no good, then piped a supply from another craft across to mine and it started. We replaced the pump, in my case its external so most will fit, and all was good.
Untill the ECU got wet and decided it wanted to keep the injectors open 100% of the time!!!

that kinda takes the theory out of fuel injection huh ? hover ......giggles ...hope you can get it sorted mate

charlie99 wrote:that kinda takes the theory out of fuel injection huh ? hover ......giggles ...hope you can get it sorted mate

Yes it lives again, replaced ecu and fitted injectors from BMW 325(same flow rate) so its back on song. The red/white and red/blue craft in the video are K powered, the smaller white one has a Briggs 23hp lawn mower engine.
https://www.youtube.com/user/HoverIreland#p/u

stunning ...thanks

Finally found the time/inclination to get back to the old K today and fit the Peugeot fuel pump as described above, put fresh fuel into the tank and with some trepidation pressed the starter. After a few turns of the engine she fired up and sat ticking over at half fast idle setting but after only a few moments I suddenly realised that there was fuel peeing out of the return pipe junction at rear end of fuel rail ! Turned engine off and retightened jubilee clip at that junction and fired her up again, she started up readily enough and ticked over happily as above (no fuel leak this time). Applied some throttle and it seems that I am back to square one again, starts and responds to throttle normally for a minute or so and then starts farting around. The new fuel pump seemed to be making a little more noise than it ought to which leads me to believe it is working too hard to push fuel around the system and maintain pressure etc. As I do not have access to any type of pressure testing equipment and cannot beg/steal/borrow it just now my instinct is pointing me towards this problem being caused by a faulty FPR (something that I have suspected from the beginning really). I know that the injectors and all the other fuel system components are either new or confirmed good so I guess I am going to have to bite the bullet and get a replacement FPR from somewhere Any thoughts/ideas from the very knowlegeable members here would be welcomed

P.S. I also tried blocking air intake with a rag and performance markedly improved - clearly not a long term cure though. Maybe somebody can make some sense of my ramblings ?