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robmack

robmack
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Life time member
Hi,  I got a new-to-me oil-water pump from a guy I know which I'm going to use to replace the leaking pump on my K75.  I've successfully removed the pump and cover plate from the engine block, however the impeller gear is stuck.  It won't come out with just pulling by hand. I don't want to apply any force at the moment until I confirm how it should be removed.

Question: should this part just pull out of the block or do I have to get into the oil reservoir to release it?Oil-water pump impeller reluctant to come out Photo-10

http://k75retro.blogspot.ca/
    

Suzi Q

Suzi Q
Life time member
Life time member
Hi Rob
That guy should just pull straight out - resistance is probably the o-ring.
Oil-water pump impeller reluctant to come out Img_5014


__________________________________________________
Sometimes I'm not really Suzi Quatro.
    

robmack

robmack
Life time member
Life time member
Cheers SuziQ. I'll use more persuasion.

http://k75retro.blogspot.ca/
    

Suzi Q

Suzi Q
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Life time member
That thing has been living, on it's own, in the bottom of my box of engine bits for a few years now. Thing is, I have two oil/water pumps in there as well, and they are both complete with those shafts in place. Which is worrying... scratch


__________________________________________________
Sometimes I'm not really Suzi Quatro.
    

Dai

Dai
Life time member
Life time member
Yeah. I had to use the two screwdriver trick to get the last one out. It warn't comin out not no way no other way.


__________________________________________________
1983 K100 naked upgraded to K100LT spec after spending time as an RS and an RT
1987 K100RT
Others...
1978 Moto Guzzi 850-T3, 1979 Moto Guzzi 850-T3 California,1993 Moto Guzzi 1100ie California
2020 Royal Enfield Bullet 500
    

acftfliehr

acftfliehr
active member
active member
I have the same issue, cannot pull the small Oil Pump gear from the the output shaft.  Has anyone used a tap and install a bolt so that a hammer can be used?  If so what size tap?  Thanks in advance for any advice!

    

Dai

Dai
Life time member
Life time member
I doubt that a tap will work as the shaft is, at the very least, semi-case hardened. Have you tried levering it off using two screwdrivers? If not, make sure you put a piece of cloth between the screwdriver and the pump housing to protect the housing.


__________________________________________________
1983 K100 naked upgraded to K100LT spec after spending time as an RS and an RT
1987 K100RT
Others...
1978 Moto Guzzi 850-T3, 1979 Moto Guzzi 850-T3 California,1993 Moto Guzzi 1100ie California
2020 Royal Enfield Bullet 500
    

8Back to top Go down   Oil-water pump impeller reluctant to come out Empty levering off the stuck impeller Sun Jun 09, 2024 5:52 pm

redrockmania

redrockmania
Silver member
Silver member
Re: Protecting the surface of the oil/water pump housing from damage if levering it off with 2 levers such as screw drivers. 
For years I used commercially made curved plastic/rubber rim protectors with a piece of cord attached to protect wheel rims when tyre changing using tyre levers. The down side is that they cost $, quickly become damaged and have to be thrown away and are too thick, making their removal sometimes difficult. I have changed to making my own disposable rim protectors. I cut out pieces of thin wall semi hard plastic found in plastic milk and drink containers and the like. 
Consider this easy option to protect the housing surface when levering.

    

acftfliehr

acftfliehr
active member
active member
Dai,

That's what I was fearing...  this is all my bad...  I installed the pump assy with both gears in the pump housing...  I should have installed the small oil pump driving gear into the engine case and lined it up with the offset notches of the output shaft, then install the pump assy (with the driven larger gear installed lining the large gear up with the small gear by turning the water pump impeller).  

I've done this twice before  on this very bike (Original owner)!!!!  In this case in a time constraint hurry, thought the driving small gear was notched equally with the output shaft meaning it could only go in one way even though it could be 180 degrees either way!!!  NO!!!!  like the airheads Ignition trigger assy's the notches are offset! 

I thought during the the assembly at the time of the Oil pump/water pump went in smoothly until it matted with the engine front case, the notches must have been 180 off!!!

When I went to start the engine it cranked over and started briefly, then locked up!  Think the engine is toast!!  I have a spare with 25K Miles on the clock, this one has 310,000 (but still going strong until this debacle)!!!!

I work as a Aircraft Mechanic and cannot believe I did this!!!   And I know better.

Moral of the story!!!  I was in a hurry to get this little job done as we have our national rally in Oregon this coming week..  wanted to ride the bike up  and tried to fit this job into a tight work schedule!!!

I've been beating my self up these past few days mentally on how this could have been prevented, however, looking forward now to do the engine swap after the rally and will "Take my Time" Slow  and methodical is good!!!

Taking My modified 1986 R80 to a 100RS to the rally.  It will be cooler ride however...  which is a very small benefit of this man induced disaster (in my head of course)!!  

Don't be so uppity that a simple job can be done in a hurry!!!

    

Dai

Dai
Life time member
Life time member
The pump might be toast but I doubt that the engine is. Drain the oil and coolant, pull the pump and see if the engine will turn over.

Now, which airline do you work for...? Oil-water pump impeller reluctant to come out 44271 

My guess is FBO? What are you qualified on? I used to fly GAT-115s (hi Aussies!) and PA-140s until I had an unwanted high-speed meeting with the asphalt in the 1980s.


__________________________________________________
1983 K100 naked upgraded to K100LT spec after spending time as an RS and an RT
1987 K100RT
Others...
1978 Moto Guzzi 850-T3, 1979 Moto Guzzi 850-T3 California,1993 Moto Guzzi 1100ie California
2020 Royal Enfield Bullet 500
    

Laitch

Laitch
Life time member
Life time member
acftfliehr wrote:thought the driving small gear was notched equally with the output shaft meaning it could only go in one way even though it could be 180 degrees either way!!!  NO!!!!  like the airheads Ignition trigger assy's the notches are offset!

I thought during the the assembly at the time of the Oil pump/water pump went in smoothly until it matted with the engine front case,
I don't see how you could get the pump to mate up and bolt with the engine at all if the problem were as you describe. The pump would be standing off from the case by the length of the pump gears's stub shaft that should have entered the engine output shaft but was instead hitting the edge of the output shaft's opening because the notch was out of synch with the slot.

If it's any consolation, the whole pitch of your distress makes me believe that you're mistaken, mainly because I've performed a few of those self-recriminating melodramas, too. I've abandoned them as diagnostic tools because the solutions always came from different and more benign directions. 

Maybe the source of the problem is actually within the pump. You didn't drop a nose ring into the oil pump gears during reassembly, did you?


__________________________________________________
1995 K75 90,000 miles
    

acftfliehr

acftfliehr
active member
active member
All Thanks for your support on this issue...  Will not work on this until 2 weeks as off to the the rally tomorrow..

Laitch, it did seem to mate up perfectly as I was turning the gears until it matted...  However....  the starter actually won't turn the motor over and the engine was seized, the driving gear is freaking stuck solid to the output shaft.  Tried some pretty aggressive techniques minus tapping for slide hammer use.

DAI, Started under my dad overseas 1964 to 1974 (India, Iran and Afghanistan) on Convair embassy aircraft (C-131's as a cleaner then third wipe) came back to the states in 1974 became a B-52 Crew Chief, got out after 4 years and after A&P school, tried to get in the airlines, but went the corporate route...  Jet Stars, DH-125's Falcons, then DOM duties on Falcons, and Gulfstreams...  to this day...

Learned how to ride in Afghanistan 1972...  Honda CD90...  Wow that is years ago!!!  Guys thanks for all the support don't do stupid stuff like I did!!!

    

Laitch

Laitch
Life time member
Life time member
If the engine is seized in both directions, I'd empty a can off Freeze Off on the face off that gear and go have a piece of Key Lime pie.

Enjoy the rally!


__________________________________________________
1995 K75 90,000 miles
    

acftfliehr

acftfliehr
active member
active member
"Key Lime pie"...  good advice and will try your suggestion...I'm Hoping this works and the Mighty K will Run again despite my actions!

    

92KK 84WW Olaf

avatar
Life time member
Life time member
I am watching this with interest. I have a complete rebuilt oil/water pump on its way to me for my K100 Sprint.

My plan is to 'simply take the old one off and put the new one on....' then refurb the old one as a spare for my RS.

I am not naive enough to believe it will be that simple...........but am hopeful.


__________________________________________________
1992 K100LT 0193214 Bertha Blue 101,000 miles
1984 K100RT 0022575 Brutus Baja Red 578 bought 36,000 now 89,150 miles
1997 K1100LT 0188024 Wotan Mystic Red 689 58,645 now 106,950 miles Deceased.
1983 K100RS 0011157 Fricka 606 Alaska Blue 29,495 miles Damn K Pox Its a Bat outta Hell Now 58,200 miles. 
1996 K1100LT 0233004 Lohengrin Mystic Red 38,000 miles currently 51,800 miles.
1983 K100RS 0004449 Odette R100 colours 58,000 miles. Sprint fairing now 63,390 miles

Past:
1968 Yamaha 80 YG1
1971 Yamaha 125 YAS-1
1968 Honda 125 SS
1970 Honda CD 175
1973 Honda CB500-4
Honda CX 500
    

Dai

Dai
Life time member
Life time member
The first time you do a pump rebuild, you will bugger up the seal. The next time you do a pump rebuild, you will remember that buggered up seal and will proceed to get it right every time thereafter.

-Confuscious


__________________________________________________
1983 K100 naked upgraded to K100LT spec after spending time as an RS and an RT
1987 K100RT
Others...
1978 Moto Guzzi 850-T3, 1979 Moto Guzzi 850-T3 California,1993 Moto Guzzi 1100ie California
2020 Royal Enfield Bullet 500
    

TacKler

TacKler
Life time member
Life time member
Dai wrote:The first time you do a pump rebuild, you will bugger up the seal. The next time you do a pump rebuild, you will remember that buggered up seal and will bugger it up again because it was so long since the last one.  

-Confused  


__________________________________________________
Red 1991 K75S
    

acftfliehr

acftfliehr
active member
active member
acftfliehr wrote:Dai,

That's what I was fearing...  this is all my bad...  I installed the pump assy with both gears in the pump housing...  I should have installed the small oil pump driving gear into the engine case and lined it up with the offset notches of the output shaft, then install the pump assy (with the driven larger gear installed lining the large gear up with the small gear by turning the water pump impeller).  

I've done this twice before  on this very bike (Original owner)!!!!  In this case in a time constraint hurry, thought the driving small gear was notched equally with the output shaft meaning it could only go in one way even though it could be 180 degrees either way!!!  NO!!!!  like the airheads Ignition trigger assy's the notches are offset! 

I thought during the the assembly at the time of the Oil pump/water pump went in smoothly until it matted with the engine front case, the notches must have been 180 off!!!

When I went to start the engine it cranked over and started briefly, then locked up!  Think the engine is toast!!  I have a spare with 25K Miles on the clock, this one has 310,000 (but still going strong until this debacle)!!!!

I work as a Aircraft Mechanic and cannot believe I did this!!!   And I know better.

Moral of the story!!!  I was in a hurry to get this little job done as we have our national rally in Oregon this coming week..  wanted to ride the bike up  and tried to fit this job into a tight work schedule!!!

I've been beating my self up these past few days mentally on how this could have been prevented, however, looking forward now to do the engine swap after the rally and will "Take my Time" Slow  and methodical is good!!!

Taking My modified 1986 R80 to a 100RS to the rally.  It will be cooler ride however...  which is a very small benefit of this man induced disaster (in my head of course)!!  

Don't be so uppity that a simple job can be done in a hurry!!!

Now that I've purchased a New R1250RT over this fiasco, plus a bit of free time after a busy summer,  I started to tackle this and see if I could get that small gear out of it's bore.  Success!!! 

By using a Rolling Head Pry Bar (https://otctools.com/products/rolling-head-pry-bar-18-long) that was out of my dad's kit (whom has recently passed) I was able to pry it out with very little effort, using the oil passage way below the oil pump mount surface as a leveraging point (used the small 12" Bar) and the wee gear popped out just like that!

The replacement gear when properly aligned with the notch of the output shaft was very hard to push into the bore as the block bore was buggered up from the offset of screw up of install and then running it for a bit.

I Dremeled  the areas that were protruding into the bore (cleaned it up) until it was smooth with easy easy installation of the gear.

Now I have to sell my original bike to someone who may be interested as I have too many bikes in the garage!!!  Great bike for commuting and wanted to let the group know of how durable this machine is, even with a major screw up like I did and survived!

Was thinking of keeping the bike and selling the new one, but it is indeed light years ahead of the 1985 (my last new vehicle purchase).  Bay Area Based!!!  Set of Spare Wheels included and asking only $1000.00 to a good owner...  Complete Maintenance records from Birth as well!!

Video of the beast after a 25 mile ride and ops check...  since used it for my 50 mile round trip commute in the blistering 105 degree F weather!!

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/A0iEWcv9eDg?si=I6LT1O0G9k8_B9te

    

Dai

Dai
Life time member
Life time member
Oo - two comfy bums on that bike!!!

[Edit] Ah shit. Just realised that comment could be (mis)intepreted in a number of ways!!! Oil-water pump impeller reluctant to come out 44271 Oil-water pump impeller reluctant to come out 44271


__________________________________________________
1983 K100 naked upgraded to K100LT spec after spending time as an RS and an RT
1987 K100RT
Others...
1978 Moto Guzzi 850-T3, 1979 Moto Guzzi 850-T3 California,1993 Moto Guzzi 1100ie California
2020 Royal Enfield Bullet 500
    

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