starter issue K100

Gary11 · 1 starter issue K100 Wed Jun 29, 2022 8:25 am

Gary11

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Hi all had the dreaded continuously spinning over motor , changed starter relay same issue, new battery another new relay all switches tested NEW starter fitted, still does it ,question is whether to change relay again (after being stuck I guess they are toast?) change earth cable as it has been hot and looks quite thin, what would be the recommended fix are there any solid state relay options?
Many Thanks

92KK 84WW Olaf · 2 Re: starter issue K100 Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:02 am

92KK 84WW Olaf

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The starter button swtich can stick and sounds like yours is doing that or has a short in that wiring.

Be sure you have the correct relay.

Gary11 · 3 Re: starter issue K100 Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:42 am

Gary11

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92KK 84WW Olaf wrote:The starter button swtich can stick and sounds like yours is doing that or has a short in that wiring.

Be sure you have the correct relay.

Hi its genuine Bosch one new x 2, switch is fine tested many times its the relay sticking because if you tap it the engine stops cranking ,I've run a power pack direct to positive and earthed on frame (so taken off original thin earth cable) have fitted new SM too bit lost really, am looking for a better relay if anyone has any options for a heavy duty one? Seems once relay stuck its junk ....again

daveyson · 4 Starter relay Wed Jun 29, 2022 10:57 am

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Sometimes a new battery is not much good. It's a Bosch relay but is the part number for a k100?

How many km on the bike?

What's the Voltage reading across the battery terminals, and what's the reading while cranking?

Did the relay just make one click and then stuck, or was it a rapid series of clicks before it stuck?

Gary11 · 5 Re: starter issue K100 Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:06 am

Gary11

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daveyson wrote:Sometimes a new battery is not much good. It's a Bosch relay but is the part number for a k100?

How many km on the bike?

What's the Voltage reading across the battery terminals, and what's the reading while cranking?

Did the relay just make one click and then stuck, or was it a rapid series of clucks before it stuck?

Hi relay was 0332002160
Bike has 20k (miles)
new gel battery will advise cranking voltage as I need another relay they seem unreliable once stuck? it made a couple of clicks then stuck, when engine is cranking on its own a tap on relay stops it I've even removed frame earth and used sealey battery pack instead of bike battery exactly the same stuck solenoid, thanks for reply.

daveyson · 6 Starter relay Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:33 am

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You can do the battery tests with the relay you have, but maybe unplug the tank connector so that it only cranks but doesn't start.

You might not need another relay. I had a relay that stuck a number of times before I got it and was stuck in the on position for years before I got it. When I got it, as soon as I connected the battery, it started cranking. I accidentally dropped the relay, which fixed it. I put a new battery in and never had the problem since. But your case sounds a bit different.

This sort of reminds me of that old chestnut with cars starters where there's enough power to pull in but not enough to hold in, so a on off, on off situation. Too many sparks close together making the contact hot and then it sticks.

Point-Seven-five · 7 Re: starter issue K100 Wed Jun 29, 2022 1:50 pm

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Some questions that come into my mind:

Does the starter start turning when you turn on the key, or after you push the start button?

You turn the key off and the starter keeps running until you tap the start relay, is that correct?

The bike has not been modified, is that correct?

Does the headlight go out when the start relay is stuck and the starter is running?

With the bike on the center stand and the rear wheel off the ground does the starter run on with the transmission in gear?

Answers to these questions might help isolate the cause of your problem.

MartinW · 8 Re: starter issue K100 Wed Jun 29, 2022 3:37 pm

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Stuck relays can be repaired by popping off the cover and gently prying the points apart. It normally doesn't require much to get them to separate sometimes a tap on the bench will suffice. Once apart the points can be filed flat using a points file. Removing the arced peaks can get the points working again. Fitting a battery isolation switch helps when the relay sticks. The sticking normally occurs when the battery has low voltage. Just after I got my Brick my relay stuck I tried turning off the ignition and hitting the kill switch, it didn't work. As the bike slowly cranked over the battery overheated and the side of the battery blew out sending acid everywhere. I had to dowse the battery and myself with water and get a push start to get home. From then on I carried an Allen key so i could quickly remove the earth lead to the gearbox. After the relay stuck again i fitted the kill switch.
Regards Martin.

92KK 84WW Olaf · 9 Re: starter issue K100 Wed Jun 29, 2022 4:21 pm

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Fit one of these. https://www.tills.de/motorcycle-battery-disconnect-adaptor.html

starter issue K100 9310

MartinW · 10 Re: starter issue K100 Wed Jun 29, 2022 4:54 pm

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A few of the Kronies have fitted these. Easy to isolate when doing electrical work and also works as a security device if you remove the key. Mine resides under the lefthand side cover.

Point-Seven-five · 11 Re: starter issue K100 Wed Jun 29, 2022 5:37 pm

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It is the nature of relays that the pull in current is higher than the current required to hold them. I am suspecting that your problem is related to a wiring fault that is allowing a reduced amount of current to flow after the start button is released. This current isn't enough to make the contacts close unless the start button is pushed, but is enough to hold the contacts closed after the button is released. Because the magnetic force from the leakage current is is weak, tapping the relay will make them open up.

Another test besides answering my questions above would be to press and release the start button and while the starter is running disconnect the start relay's coil connection. If the relay drops out, that would indicate an electrical issue causing the starter to run vs. a mechanical problem with the spring that pulls the contacts apart.

If the relay contacts remain closed after you pull the coil connector off, the problem is mechanical.

I suspect that the problem is current leakage because you say changing the relay doesn't fix the problem. Answering my questions above would help identify where to look for the electrical issue.

daveyson · 12 Starter issues Wed Jun 29, 2022 10:05 pm

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I know this is wishful thinking, but here I go again.

Hopefully it's simply a loose or dirty connection. Or just a bad battery. I know you've tried three batteries, but I'm guessing two of them are old and the new one might not be good, especially if it came from a shop with a low turn over, then that "new" battery might have been on the shelf for a year say. I've seen that old chestnut raise it's ugly head too, over the years. Probably not the case but maybe load test the new battery or try one more.

Gary11 · 13 Re: starter issue K100 Thu Jul 07, 2022 2:09 pm

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Point-Seven-five wrote:Some questions that come into my mind:

Does the starter start turning when you turn on the key, or after you push the start button? After you push button

You turn the key off and the starter keeps running until you tap the start relay, is that correct? Yes

The bike has not been modified, is that correct? Yes

Does the headlight go out when the start relay is stuck and the starter is running? Not sure will check

With the bike on the center stand and the rear wheel off the ground does the starter run on with the transmission in gear? yes but wont start spinning in gear

Answers to these questions might help isolate the cause of your problem. Thanks for this regards Gary

Gary11 · 14 Re: starter issue K100 Thu Jul 07, 2022 2:16 pm

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daveyson wrote:I know this is wishful thinking, but here I go again.

Hopefully it's simply a loose or dirty connection. Or just a bad battery. I know you've tried three batteries, but I'm guessing two of them are old and the new one might not be good, especially if it came from a shop with a low turn over, then that "new" battery might have been on the shelf for a year say. I've seen that old chestnut raise it's ugly head too, over the years. Probably not the case but maybe load test the new battery or try one more.

Hi new exide battery came today I have also had made a new earth (Battery to gearbox) cable x 2 thicker than factory and fitted them after cleaning earth point,I had great expectations ! This time it just did nothing from starter button, until I pulled clutch in,dash lights dimmed then it started and ran fine,spun over once ok but then kept spinning until tapped relay,o n 2nd attempt we tried something different held starter button down nothing but dash lights dimmed slightly and kept tapping relay it then worked and then failed, Im calling it yet another ruined relay so ordered another (4th one) as our workshop reckon those solenoids are no good once stuck, its coming Monday so another weekend lost but cant do anything else I guess, if this was a car Id say its an earth fault.

MartinW · 15 Re: starter issue K100 Thu Jul 07, 2022 5:30 pm

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My relay is the original to the bike and has stuck three times in 30 years. I've never had to pull it apart it has always unstuck itself. I've pulled apart a mates relay and filed the points at his request and they had arc marks but again they weren't stuck.
Regards Martin.

daveyson · 16 Starter issues Thu Jul 07, 2022 9:45 pm

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Ditto.

I think your symptoms are consistent with a weak connection or component in the positive side of the starter circuit because of the improvement with the clutch pulled in. I'm assuming the relay still clicks repeatedly before sticking. I'm also assuming your brick was in neutral at that time (or it would be a normal result if it was still in gear from the previous in gear test you did?) Give the instrument cluster connections a good clean. Use electrical contact cleaner.

Don't buy more parts unless a part tests bad. One exception, replace fuse one, it's cheap and deliberately the weakest part of the system. And clean it's sockets. Fuses are the second cheapest part of a brick.

The dim cluster lights points to a Voltage drop, and check the connections at the socket for the starter relay.

Remove the starter relay, with a test light between 85 and 86 of the starter relay socket, press the start button a number of times, the light should go on and off consistently with the button. Do the same with the kill switch and ignition switch. I think the start button will test good because of the dimming lights symptom.

If the lights get brighter with a battery jumper cable firmly between battery earth and the gearbox, there's a problem on the earth side. Same goes if it's from battery earth to a clean metal part of the frame. Clean the positive battery clamp and check for Voltage drop on the positive side too.

When it next fails to do anything, listen for a faint click from the relay box when you turn the key on, if there's no click clean the ignition switch, if it clicks, clean the kill switch.

Point-Seven-five · 17 Re: starter issue K100 Thu Jul 07, 2022 11:59 pm

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On the side of the starter relay there is a two prong connector that carries the power for the relay's coil.

Instead of tapping the relay when the starter is running, pull that connector off. What happens when you do that?

I am suspecting a slight trickle of current into the coil that is enough to hold the contacts closed, but not enough to close them. Pulling the connector would confirm my hypothesis if the starter stops running.

The fact that you see the same problem with several start relays and a new battery makes me think that the relays are not the problem and the battery voltage isn't an issue either.

daveyson · 18 Starter issue Fri Jul 08, 2022 9:43 pm

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Righto once again I'm no happy with how haphazard my last post was, but there it is.

Point seven five, what do you think about this idea which I haven't mentioned yet cause it could well be a bunch of crap. I was thinking, spose there's say only 8Volts at socket 30 of the starter relay. Would that result in higher Amps from 30 to 87 causing the contacts to get hot and sticky? Is there any credibility in that do you think?

Point-Seven-five · 19 Re: starter issue K100 Fri Jul 08, 2022 11:09 pm

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Daveyson, contact welding is the result of the motor not having enough voltage to put the current required to get the starter motor spinning. If the motor does not spin it won't generate enough counter EMF to reduce the current draw through the starter relay contacts, it will just sit there acting like a dead short on the battery. Since the motor is spinning, there is not enough current flowing to weld them.

daveyson · 20 Starter issue Sat Jul 09, 2022 6:08 am

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Bonus, thanks, I gotta do a bit of reading up.

92KK 84WW Olaf · 21 Re: starter issue K100 Mon Jul 11, 2022 6:06 am

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Lights dimmed. . . . . .they need to fully go out when you press the starter button.

Load Shed Relay issue a possibility? Can starter motor brushes being in poor condition have this effect?

I am assuming the Bosch relay part no given in the earlier posts is correct for the K100?

Gary11 · 22 thanks for replies Mon Jul 11, 2022 8:59 am

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Thanks every one,I have confirmed relays have been correct bosch ones ending in 161 or 156 I have a new battery and have manufactured 2 new earth leads, I have a further relay coming today ,the stage we are at now is start button just makes dash lights dim whilst its doing this if you tap the relay in the same manner as when stuck spinning it turns over,it also now when not spinning over starts to spin when clutch is pulled in I think stuck relay may be causing this will post up again once its all together again!
Gary

daveyson · 23 Stater issues Mon Jul 11, 2022 9:19 am

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When in start mode, a part of the circuit is through the instrument cluster. The gear indicator should show 0, and the neutral light should be on. If this part of the circuit is faulty, you can crank your it by bypassing it when you pull in the clutch.

I was thinking the dim cluster was due to a Voltage drop, but was just guessing. If you read 12Volts on the green/black wire to the instrument cluster, check if the earth's are good, which brings up the question of which cluster lights are on, and which ones go dim. If say you read 8Volts, then there's a Voltage drop between the cluster and the battery. Hopefully simply cleaning the cluster plug contacts might fix it.

It would be good to check the Volts also at the starter relay for 30 and 86.

Gary11 · 24 Re: starter issue K100 Mon Jul 11, 2022 10:46 am

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daveyson wrote:When in start mode, a part of the circuit is through the instrument cluster. The gear indicator should show 0, and the neutral light should be on. If this part of the circuit is faulty, you can crank your it by bypassing it when you pull in the clutch.

I was thinking the dim cluster was due to a Voltage drop, but was just guessing. If you read 12Volts on the green/black wire to the instrument cluster, check if the earth's are good, which brings up the question of which cluster lights are on, and which ones go dim. If say you read 8Volts, then there's a Voltage drop between the cluster and the battery. Hopefully simply cleaning the cluster plug contacts might fix it.

It would be good to check the Volts also at the starter relay for 30 and 86.

Hi thanks for reply, I've fitted yet another relay exactly the same only spins with clutch in occasionally fires then hey presto worked perfectly started and dissengaged let it run for 30 secs then stalled now same no good, if you push start button with neutral on and gp 0 nothing but brightness on lamps dims,also now alternator lights on ,I was wondering if cables were round wrong way on relay? Just a thought, thought Id cracked it for a few seconds LOL it wont spin now with clutch in or not fuel pump not buzzing on start button press either....not happy.

robmack · 25 Re: starter issue K100 Mon Jul 11, 2022 1:09 pm

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Have you disassembled and cleaned the inside of the starter motor? If not, please do so. While you're in there, check the length of the brushes and replace them if they are too short.

92KK 84WW Olaf · 26 Re: starter issue K100 Mon Jul 11, 2022 5:07 pm

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Some place in my memeory of time and all the posts here there is something about a faulty load shed relay causing some strange problems like this. Also starter brushes.

You seem to have isolated out battery and relay issues.

Starter brush kits are very cheap and so too is a load shed relay. The starter brushes also perform an earthing function on the K bike.

daveyson · 27 Starter issue Mon Jul 11, 2022 5:41 pm

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As a test from some old thread in the past, I removed the load shed relay, but my brick still started normally, so I think it's just a helper but not essential. The starter motor provides earth to the coil of the load shed relay, so that's another reason why the load shed relay might not click with the key turned to on, now that the symptoms have changed a bit.

I've had the starter brushes problem, but the symptoms were different, but if you have 12 Volts at the starter with the start button pressed but the starter doesn't turn, yes you have isolated the problem to the starter. That's a quick easy test.

Gary11 · 28 Re: starter issue K100 Wed Jul 13, 2022 5:37 am

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robmack wrote:Have you disassembled and cleaned the inside of the starter motor? If not, please do so. While you're in there, check the length of the brushes and replace them if they are too short.

hi rob,
new starter fitted
thanks
Gary

92KK 84WW Olaf · 29 Re: starter issue K100 Wed Jul 13, 2022 6:33 am

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Gary11 wrote:

robmack wrote:Have you disassembled and cleaned the inside of the starter motor? If not, please do so. While you're in there, check the length of the brushes and replace them if they are too short.

hi rob,
new starter fitted
thanks
Gary

If it's a used starter its not a guarantee it's good. Did you open it up and have a look before fitting it?

Gary11 · 30 Re: starter issue K100 Wed Jul 13, 2022 7:15 am

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92KK 84WW Olaf wrote:

Gary11 wrote:

robmack wrote:Have you disassembled and cleaned the inside of the starter motor? If not, please do so. While you're in there, check the length of the brushes and replace them if they are too short.

hi rob,
new starter fitted
thanks
Gary

If it's a used starter its not a guarantee it's good. Did you open it up and have a look before fitting it?

Hi Rob its a new one mate
wondering about load shed relay, earth connections to clocks and handlebar switches now

Laitch · 31 Re: starter issue K100 Wed Jul 13, 2022 11:08 am

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How about this one?

Although I like the sound of counter-EMF and in fact might have experienced that at a delicatessen in Knoxville once, according to BMW’s manual Level 2–LE Jetronic, the starter relay ground is applied and disconnected by the ignition control unit based on crankshaft rotation signals it receives from the Hall sensor. If those signals to the ignition control unit trigger an electical signal that is weak because the control unit is malfunctioning, it wouldn’t surprise me that beating on the relay would have an effect on the relay causing disconnection or connection.

The ignition control unit receives operating power from the ignition switch through the kill switch. If the ignition switch contacts are dirty, it might not send adequate power to the ignition control unit for accurate operation. If all else seems ok, consider testing the ignition control unit based on results developed from data in the troubleshooting manual. If the parameters are incorrect, consider cleaning the ignition switch and kill switch before replacing the anything.

Point-Seven-five · 32 Re: starter issue K100 Wed Jul 13, 2022 2:17 pm

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About a week ago I asked about doing a simple test to determine if there was power to the coil of the start relay holding the contacts closed.

Still no response...

Laitch · 33 Re: starter issue K100 Wed Jul 13, 2022 3:24 pm

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Point-Seven-five wrote:About a week ago . . . Still no response...

It could be that the pace of life in a coastal town like Shoeburyness is somewhat slower than the norm in rural New York, resulting in an extended Standard Unit of Delay that can only be accommodated by residential experience. I know it takes longer to get french fries in Miami than in South Burlington. If you leave Al's French Fries out the the equation, it's Miami's humidity that slows things down so you order them before you want them. Smile

Last edited by Laitch on Wed Jul 13, 2022 6:08 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : modification of outlook)

Gary11 · 34 Re: starter issue K100 Fri Jul 15, 2022 8:16 am

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Point-Seven-five wrote:About a week ago I asked about doing a simple test to determine if there was power to the coil of the start relay holding the contacts closed.

Still no response...

Hi sorry been waiting for our electrician! We have checked and swopped out load shed relay still same and have now checked voltage at starter relay with button pressed and its 6 volts its losing power somewhere so seems an earth fault so looks like fairing off and tank again unless there are some other earth points or connections to check that we may be able to get at that may cause this? All you replies are much appreciated chaps.
Very frustrated seems all the money, starter, relays, battery's was wasted back to square 1

daveyson · 35 Starter issue Fri Jul 15, 2022 8:27 am

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Hmm doesn't seem like an earth issue to me.

What happens when you pull the plug at the starter relay like point seven five mentions? That's a quick easy test that costs no money.

Also you could keep doing Voltage checks, a step at a time towards the battery, to help find where the Voltage drop is.

Point-Seven-five · 36 Re: starter issue K100 Fri Jul 15, 2022 8:43 am

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In the unlikely event you do try pulling the connector when the starter is running on, it would be useful to get a voltage reading across the terminals in the connector.

Gary11 · 37 Re: starter issue K100 Fri Jul 15, 2022 9:29 am

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daveyson wrote:Hmm doesn't seem like an earth issue to me.

What happens when you pull the plug at the starter relay like point seven five mentions? That's a quick easy test that costs no money.

Also you could keep doing Voltage checks, a step at a time towards the battery, to help find where the Voltage drop is.

So simplistically the fault is only 6 volts at starter relay with start button pressed, this under voltage causing the relay to stick. Earth to Gbox changed

daveyson · 38 Stater issues Fri Jul 15, 2022 10:17 am

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I think it's too early to tell yet but your test results will help find the problem.

At which starter relay positive did you read 6 Volts?

Laitch · 39 Re: starter issue K100 Fri Jul 15, 2022 10:44 am

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Gary11 wrote:So simplistically the fault is only 6 volts at starter relay with start button pressed, this under voltage causing the relay to stick. Earth to Gbox changed

Fairing off, tank off, test the ignition control unit's output. starter issue K100 177381

Gary11 · 40 Re: starter issue K100 Mon Jul 18, 2022 7:11 am

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Laitch wrote:

Gary11 wrote:So simplistically the fault is only 6 volts at starter relay with start button pressed, this under voltage causing the relay to stick. Earth to Gbox changed

Fairing off, tank off, test the ignition control unit's output.

Looking that way ignition switch and start button are going to get stripped and cleaned first , it wont even spin over now clutch pulled in or not ,some one posted a K100 wiring diagram but I cant see it now any chance of posting again please sorry thanks for your help everyone.

Laitch · 41 Re: starter issue K100 Mon Jul 18, 2022 10:14 am

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Gary11 wrote: . . . some one posted a K100 wiring diagram but I cant see it now any chance of posting again

Click the Portal tab at the top of this page, then click on the words Tech Page in its center, then be agreeable, then click on the words Electrical Diagrams under the category Electrical. Also in that category is the Troubleshooting the EFI guide and the Cleaning the ignition switch guide.

Gary11 · 42 Re: starter issue K100 Mon Jul 18, 2022 1:14 pm

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Laitch wrote:

Gary11 wrote: . . . some one posted a K100 wiring diagram but I cant see it now any chance of posting again

Click the Portal tab at the top of this page, then click on the words Tech Page in its center, then be agreeable, then click on the words Electrical Diagrams under the category Electrical. Also in that category is the Troubleshooting the EFI guide and the Cleaning the ignition switch guide.

aaah thanks so much for that!
G

Gary11 · 43 starter issue K100 Fri Aug 19, 2022 9:02 am

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Hi every one just to thank all for their help, finally got the family heirloom up and running all is now good it was a bad connection in the back of the ignition switch, back on the road MOTd too.
Thanks again all!

Dai · 44 Re: starter issue K100 Sat Aug 20, 2022 5:26 pm

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