1 starter circuit problem Fri Mar 12, 2021 12:22 pm
stevieboy63
active member
I have unplugged and cleaned each individual multi plug and connection, cleaned all of the earths, bypassed the clutch switch and checked the side stand switch
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Last edited by Point-Seven-five on Sun Mar 14, 2021 1:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
Last edited by Point-Seven-five on Sun Mar 14, 2021 1:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
This diagram seems to indicate that in a '96 K1100 like stevieboy(sb) owns, a malfunctioning clutch switch or neutral switch can interfere with starting even if the side stand switch is working correctly. If there's 12V at the starter relay coil connection from the starter switch then the Motoronic relay might be faulty or there is some other wiring flaw. sb indicates the clutch switch is ok so seems to have attempted starting with the clutch handlever pulled in. It would be helpful for sb to put the year of manufacture and model of sb's moto in the Signature section of sb's Profile so it would show up with every post for clarification.Point-Seven-five wrote:. . . if the start relay coil is getting 12v there is nothing but the side stand switch that will inhibit the relay from pulling in.
Last edited by Point-Seven-five on Sun Mar 14, 2021 1:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
Good point, the extra wire was not installed by me, it was already there, it is spliced in to the green wire from the right switchgear, i have no idea where it went, as i do not recall cutting through it when i removed the switch connector from the loom connector (maybe it wasn't being used). I will check the side stand switch etc as you suggest. I took the switch apart and it was extremely grubby on the contacts for the kill switch, i cant put it back together now though, the dog knocked the table flying yesterday and all of the little springs, ball bearing etc have leapt into a parallel universe . New (second hand) switch coming on Tuesday. I'm having a break from it till then. It's a lovely day today so going for a ride along the coast road on one of my other bikesdaveyson wrote:I wouldn't worry about the brake lights, I'd try to get it going first. I'd disconnect the extra wire you installed for the brake light, its masking a problem and making it more complicated.
The test light is dim at the starter relay.
I'd place the test light at the input side of the start button. If it's bright, but dim on the other side, your start button might be bad. If it's dim on the input side, I'd keep working back a step at a time, towards the battery.
Did you make some other changes? Cause this reminds me of a case where the green and green/blue wires were swapped in the right handlebar switch, by mistake, for example.
Thank you for that.robmack wrote:That diagram that Laitch posted doesn't quite jive with the one I have. The diagram I went from comes from BMW's SLP program.
Starter and Alternator
Legend
Thanks for the input. The clutch switch is working as it should, the neutral light is working, and so it the gear indicator, the side stand switch is also working correctly. I will start with checking all of the ground wires for continuity to earth and also note the resistance. You may refer to me as he, i'm a bloke, not a woke lol. I think it is a case of not seeing the wood for the trees, i'll start checking from the basics tomorrow at some point, it's far too nice a day to be tinkering in the workshop, off on a ride out on one of my other bikesLaitch wrote:This diagram seems to indicate that in a '96 K1100 like stevieboy(sb) owns, a malfunctioning clutch switch or neutral switch can interfere with starting even if the side stand switch is working correctly. If there's 12V at the starter relay coil connection from the starter switch then the Motoronic relay might be faulty or there is some other wiring flaw. sb indicates the clutch switch is ok so seems to have attempted starting with the clutch handlever pulled in. It would be helpful for sb to put the year of manufacture and model of sb's moto in the Signature section of sb's Profile so it would show up with every post for clarification.Point-Seven-five wrote:. . . if the start relay coil is getting 12v there is nothing but the side stand switch that will inhibit the relay from pulling in.
This post is using a genderless pronoun technique I'm developing to spare a perfectly useful set of existing English-language pronouns from abuse in workplace memos wherever problems with their usage might occur. It's a little choppy but sacrifices must be made.
I have just noticed on the diagram that you sent, it shows the ignition switch to have 4 positions. position 1 is "off", position 2 is "R", position 3 is "on", then of course there is the position for parking light. From the off position, my bike's ignition switch will only turn one click clockwise, indicating (according to the schematics) that the ignition is in the "R" position, it will not turn any further, indicating that it is not switching to the "on" position. Is this a mistake on the schematic diagram, or does my ignition switch have a fault. The wire that someone who had the bike before me added (spliced into the green wire that comes from the right hand switchgear) maybe was added to provide an ignition fed live to somewhere due to the fact that the ignition switch will not turn to the "on" position?robmack wrote:That diagram that Laitch posted doesn't quite jive with the one I have. The diagram I went from comes from BMW's SLP program.
Starter and Alternator
Legend
This is the cover of the manual from which that diagram was taken. There's a group of these manuals—ABS1-2, LE Jetronic, Motronic 2.1-2.2—in the Technical Library at Motobrick. Member volador uploaded them.robmack wrote:That diagram that Laitch posted doesn't quite jive with the one I have. The diagram I went from comes from BMW's SLP program.
I believe you. Yours was just the post at hand for experimentation.stevieboy63 wrote:You may refer to me as he, i'm a bloke, not a woke lol.
Last edited by Point-Seven-five on Sun Mar 14, 2021 2:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
Here's an excerpt from the K1100RT K1100LT Rider's Manual, copyright 1995. From what mike d and stevieboy are describing, there are two differing ignition lock systems. It isn't unusual for BMW to not update manuals because it is often revising models during their production life. These also might be continental differences.stevieboy63 wrote:I have just noticed on the diagram that you sent, it shows the ignition switch to have 4 positions. position 1 is "off", position 2 is "R", position 3 is "on", then of course there is the position for parking light. From the off position, my bike's ignition switch will only turn one click clockwise, indicating (according to the schematics) that the ignition is in the "R" position, it will not turn any further, indicating that it is not switching to the "on" position. Is this a mistake on the schematic diagram, or does my ignition switch have a fault.robmack wrote:That diagram that Laitch posted doesn't quite jive with the one I have.mike d wrote:My K1100 (1994) is the same i.e. ignition switch turn once to the right for fully on (ignoring the handlebar locking position).
Laitch wrote:This is the cover of the manual from which that diagram was taken. There's a group of these manuals—ABS1-2, LE Jetronic, Motronic 2.1-2.2—in the Technical Library at Motobrick. Member volador uploaded them.robmack wrote:That diagram that Laitch posted doesn't quite jive with the one I have. The diagram I went from comes from BMW's SLP program.
The table of contents, and notes on pages by one of the manuals previous owners, seem to indicate its relevance to both the K1100 and the R1100RS which share certain Motronic functions. Maybe somebody here who owns a '95 or later K1100 can confirm that its fuel pump primes with the side stand down but that it can't be started unless the clutch switch or neutral switch is activated. That would confirm the diagram. I'm just the messenger.Point-Seven-five wrote:Neither of diagrams I found come close to matching the wiring shown in that illustration. Is there a specific model identified for that diagram. Is it possible that it shows the wiring for another model? The manual title only mentions Motronic, and possibly may be generic.
Fuel pump does NOT prime if side stand is down.Laitch wrote:The table of contents, and notes on pages by one of the manuals previous owners, seem to indicate its relevance to both the K1100 and the R1100RS which share certain Motronic functions. Maybe somebody here who owns a '95 or later K1100 can confirm that its fuel pump primes with the side stand down but that it can't be started unless the clutch switch or neutral switch is activated. That would confirm the diagram. I'm just the messenger.Point-Seven-five wrote:Neither of diagrams I found come close to matching the wiring shown in that illustration. Is there a specific model identified for that diagram. Is it possible that it shows the wiring for another model? The manual title only mentions Motronic, and possibly may be generic.
daveyson wrote:To me that's in agreement with the drawing. What's wrong with the drawing Laitch posted? Whats wrong with the Clymer drawing, or any other?
Thank you for your input, replacement righthand switchgear coming tomorrow, i'll trace everything back to the battery, once i have the switchgear plugged indaveyson wrote:Anyways, I've been thinking there is an earth failure, but also a power fail indicated by the dim test light result. I'm thinking the Amps are too low, so thought keep testing back in steps towards the battery to find where the power problem is.
Or maybe skip those steps and go straight to the ignition switch.
Is there any merit in this idea for Stevieboy?
Yes, that is correct. I have not masked the problem, it is fixed and everything is working as it should. Apart from me providing the earth to the starter relay, the wiring is how it left the factory. There was nothing wrong with the original switchgear, at least there wasn't until the dog knocked the table over when i has the switches in bits, loosing a couple of springs, a ball bearing and a plunger lol.daveyson wrote:True, I was looking at the diagram while you were posting to make sure I wasn't talking bullshit, I was, just tried to delete it, but you beat me to it.
A bit surprised about that, a bit of a step backwards compared to the LE Jetronic, I think.
I guess you agree though stevieboy has masked the problem rather than fixing it.
Stevieboy, am I right in assuming you installed your new switches and that you still had the same no start symptoms, and then you made the direct earth connection to the starter relay?
The motronic does not supply the earth. The wiring colours on my sidestand switch do not correspond with the colours on the schematic either. Remember that this was a police motorcycle, it may have been wired different so that it could start with the side stand down, maybe so that flashing lights etc could be operated with the engine running, stand down, so as not to drain the battery? It is also fitted with a 70 amp alternator. When I acquired the bike, it still had the flashing blue lights, sirens etc fitted, i actually had them all going when it broke down in the outside lane of the M5 Motorway at 80mph, when i was riding it home on the day i purchased it. Saved my bacon !! i had to cut across three busy lanes and an entry slip road, in order to get to the hard shoulder, in congested traffic, with the engine not running. All police gear has since been removed, by myself.daveyson wrote:Bonus, that's progress, but that's masking the problem rather than fixing it. It would be good to know why the relay is not being supplied with earth when it should.
The starter circuit isn't working now as it should cause you have constant earth to the starter relay, overriding the motronic ability to deny earth when the conditions aren't right.
The test light is no longer dim, the light switch is fine and all is working as it should. I am aware that the sidestand safety feature is no longer there, but i was brought up on old bikes with zero safety features and my post classic superbike racing Honda cb750 isn't exactly safe around the Isle of Man TT circuit either (single pot callipers up front, drum on the rear and has gone through the speed sensors on the Sulby straight at 168 mph). I think i will cope, i will sort something out on that score if i come to sell the BMW though ( i'm planning to keep it though). I cant remember off hand what colour the wires were (are) and i have taped them up with self amalgamating tape now ( I was involved in a bad motorcycle accident in July 2019 and had a traumatic brain injury as a result, along with 9 broken ribs, flail chest, fractured pelvis and broken wrist) so my memory is shite now, which is why i struggled a bit with the wiring problem, my concentration levels are very low. I spent 30 years of my life restoring classic Ferrari, Mercedes and jaguar xk's E types, Mk2's etc, and now i struggle a bit.daveyson wrote:Yes, I see your point. But with permanent earth to the sidestand you have lost the safety feature of the starter disabled while the side stand is down, that's a guess. But when the engine is at idle, the starting circuit is bypassed, so then yes it will idle with the side stand down.
We still don't know why there is an earth failure to the relay. It might be worth checking to see if the test light is still dim with the test you did.
I think a few of the symptoms are pointing to a problem at the light switch. I'm guessing you have a light switch on your right handlebar.
What are the wiring colours on the sidestand?
Except the side stand safety switch isn't working as it should. Like you assert, maybe police motos enabled starting with the side stand down for some reason unfathomable to mere civilians. Member jbt has experience in law enforcement with these motos; maybe he could shed some light on this.stevieboy63 wrote:The test light is no longer dim, the light switch is fine and all is working as it should.
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