Starting problems on a 87 K100

daveyson · 51 No go Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:03 pm

daveyson

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You're right, the ignition trigger assembly is another term for hall sensors. I wouldn't mess with them, see all the warnings about that in Bert's guide.

I think its safer to check for power at pin 10 with the ignition on and the ICU unplugged.

Laitch · 52 Re: Starting problems on a 87 K100 Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:14 am

Laitch

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Ccanov wrote:Then I realized that the conector was connected to the icu, measure again the pin 2 and I get the 11.36v... So, to check the pins for the ICU, the connector have to connected right?

Which book has that info?

Some pins are tested with the plug connected, others with the plug disconnected. Review the column labels at the top of the chart. X means plug connected; – means plug disconnected.

The book that has that info is BMW Motorrad's Testing for K Models. It is a testing reference for the Jetronic fuel injection control unit and ignition control unit in 2V Bricks.

Ccanov · 53 Re: Starting problems on a 87 K100 Wed Jan 20, 2021 2:40 am

Ccanov

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Sorry for the delay. I am still checking things, cleaning all the connector and checking the pins on the icu.

Today I measure the fuel pressure and with the starter depressed I have 36-38? but was kind of oscillating between 32 38,not a steady number. Not sure if it wasn’t 36 or 38 but less than 40 for sure.

I also change the injector with the ones that our colleague fuere lend me but same result.

I also read a lot of posts and of them mention issues with grounds at the bolt between the frame and engine... I do not clean those bolts. I thought that was the one under the tank and the gearbox to the battery. Is there some other ground I need to clean/check? Also I read that some of you run a wire between the ground in the frame to the gearbox ground. Should I do that too to dos car any issue “ground related”

I am still checking the icu pins but I have that fuel pressure measure pending from a previous answer. So I am back to the ICU

Laitch · 54 Re: Starting problems on a 87 K100 Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:10 am

Laitch

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Ccanov wrote:I also read a lot of posts and of them mention issues with grounds at the bolt between the frame and engine... I do not clean those bolts.
I read that some of you run a wire between the ground in the frame to the gearbox ground. Should I do that too to dos car any issue “ground related”

Is the bolt at the frame member under the tank the one you cleaned? If you have read that some owners had success attaching an extra ground wire, what is keeping you from doing that? On a neglected moto, all frame ground connections should be cleaned and you seem to understand where they are located.

You seem to have found this thread. I suggest you act on the information found in posts #1, #2, and #3 of it.

Last edited by Laitch on Wed Jan 20, 2021 11:40 am; edited 2 times in total

Point-Seven-five · 55 Re: Starting problems on a 87 K100 Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:04 am

Point-Seven-five

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While it probably won't correct your current problems, connecting a wire between the ground point on the frame under the tank and the one on the side of the transmission is a good idea.

The wire you use doesn't need to be as big as a battery cable. A size 16 or 14 is plenty large enough for the job. I like the stuff they sell at boating supply shops. It is very flexible because the strands are very fine. Most of it is tinned which does a great job of preventing the corrosion that causes problems with resistance. It costs a bit more, but is well worth it.

glennpm · 56 Re: Starting problems on a 87 K100 Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:25 am

glennpm

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- Take the tank off to get to the ground point
- Look for the numerous brown wires
- The brown (ground/earth) wires are terminated at a bolt attached to the left frame rail on the K100
- undo the bolt, sand the frame and clean the wire terminal ends
- Smear dielectric grease on the frame and on the terminals
- tighten bolt well

Glenn

Starting problems on a 87 K100 - Page 2 Ground10

Last edited by glennpm on Thu Jan 21, 2021 11:00 am; edited 1 time in total

Ccanov · 57 Re: Starting problems on a 87 K100 Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:46 am

Ccanov

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Point-Seven-five wrote:While it probably won't correct your current problems, connecting a wire between the ground point on the frame under the tank and the one on the side of the transmission is a good idea.

Now that I have the tank off again to check the ICU, I was also planning to give a thorough clean to the connectors, and another one to the ground/earth, just to be 100% sure that it’s done and it’s not affecting anything. I was reading a few post from here and looks like a good idea to run a wire from the chasis ground to the gb, which will give the peace of my mind that the grounds are fine and not interfering in the issue.

I was also planing to remove some of the wires that I am not planing to use (2nd horn, parking light and some connectors, to make the wiring easier) but that will wait until it’s working.

Ccanov · 58 Re: Starting problems on a 87 K100 Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:56 am

Ccanov

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ICU test

I checked all the pins and everything looks within the expected values but Smile

with the ignition on For the pins measuring 12v I get 12.xx and during the reading they keep decreasing to 11.xx without trying to start or anything, just measuring the same pins for a few seconds and see the countdown Smile

Should I get a new battery or just charge it again?

Point-Seven-five · 59 Re: Starting problems on a 87 K100 Thu Jan 21, 2021 4:39 pm

Point-Seven-five

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Your battery sounds like it is as deceased as a room temperature parrot.

What does the voltage reading do when you put the meter directly on the battery terminals?

Ccanov · 60 Re: Starting problems on a 87 K100 Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:47 pm

Ccanov

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Point-Seven-five wrote:Your battery sounds like it is as deceased as a room temperature parrot.

What does the voltage reading do when you put the meter directly on the battery terminals?

12.64v direct on the battery terminals. And i was getting the same reading at the ICU pins (1/10) but it was like:12.32, 12.31, time pass by with the meter in the pins, 12.00, 11.99 etc..

What battery do you recommend, i will also check the forum, but I try with the one from the GSX-R which I know its ok, and same thing happened.

Point-Seven-five · 61 Re: Starting problems on a 87 K100 Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:58 pm

Point-Seven-five

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Ccanov wrote:
12.64v direct on the battery terminals. And i was getting the same reading at the ICU pins (1/10) but it was like:12.32, 12.31, time pass by with the meter in the pins, 12.00, 11.99 etc..

What battery do you recommend, i will also check the forum, but I try with the one from the GSX-R which I know its ok, and same thing happened.

I'm confused, you say you had 12.64 at the battery terminals, and the same reading at the ICU, but it was 12.31.

How is 12.31 the same as 12.64?

Did you measure what the voltage at the battery terminals did when you turned on the ignition? Your test results aren't all that clear to me.

First of all, the resting voltage on your battery is about .2 volts lower than what I would expect to see on a fully charged good battery.

Second, if the voltage on the battery terminals dropped to 11.9 volts with the ignition on but the engine not running I would be very suspicious of the battery. Pull it out and take it to be load tested.

Ccanov · 62 Re: Starting problems on a 87 K100 Sun Feb 07, 2021 8:36 pm

Ccanov

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I am back. It’s been hard with the work and snow around here.

Advance auto check the battery and they said it’s ok, and also charge it, so I guess that the battery now is not an issue anymore.

I also clean the starter, there was a lot of carbon in there but now looks good. I follow the steps somewhere in the forum and put it back together. I read that if it’s wrong may cause random issues, so better to discard that too from the equation.

News: I found that one of the exhaust pipes (the one on the cylinder closest to the coils, 4th?) it’s always cold and the other three are warm when trying to start. I changed the spark plug and spark plug between 1 and 4, and same thing. The same pipe is cold. I remember that I measure the coils and the valves clearance so not sure what should i check now. The injectors where reconditioned but should I swap them too? what else may be preventing the pipe to get hot? (Explosion) should I removed the exhaust pipes?

Thanks!

glennpm · 63 Re: Starting problems on a 87 K100 Sun Feb 07, 2021 8:41 pm

glennpm

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How about plug wires? Check resistance.

Ccanov · 64 Re: Starting problems on a 87 K100 Sun Feb 07, 2021 11:01 pm

Ccanov

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I already check plug wires and coils. Both within spec.

Point-Seven-five · 65 Re: Starting problems on a 87 K100 Mon Feb 08, 2021 12:09 am

Point-Seven-five

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Try disconnecting the hose to the fuel pressure regulator and capping the outlet on the #4 throttle body. Let's make sure there is no vacuum leak in that hose or the diaphragm in the regulator.

Laitch · 66 Re: Starting problems on a 87 K100 Mon Feb 08, 2021 1:06 am

Laitch

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Ccanov wrote:what else may be preventing the pipe to get hot?

The injector for that cylinder isn't spraying, the Hall sensor for that cylinder or wiring to the sensor is faulty, the ICU is defective or the FICU is defective. These observations are based on your assertion that all spark plug connections are tight, secondary coil wire resistance is correct and coil values are correct.

Have you tested the Hall sensors using the LED method?

Matthew-Brisbane · 67 Re: Starting problems on a 87 K100 Mon Feb 08, 2021 1:16 am

Matthew-Brisbane

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Sorry for not reading the whole thread
But is the bike running at all  ?

Sound like you have spark but its not firing is this correct ?

Vic bike had a problem where the cable from the water temp joined into the ECU loom had become dislodge inside the actual connector
this was causing and over fill of fuel and not starting occasional back fire

Dai pointed out this connector has caused a problem in another thread as well

It the one on the left just in front of the ECU loom

Dai · 68 Re: Starting problems on a 87 K100 Mon Feb 08, 2021 7:33 am

Dai

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Laitch; if the HES or ICU or FICU was faulty, you'd be losing cyl. 1 & 4, not just 4? If cyl.1 is firing, then logically that eliminates just about everything except the plug lead, plug and injector.

Actually, maybe not even the injector itself but corrosion on the terminals inside the connector. I've seen that causing a nasty intermittant misfire before now; eventually the cylinder stopped firing at all (no.4 IIRC Very Happy

) and that's what led me to the connector.

glennpm · 69 Re: Starting problems on a 87 K100 Mon Feb 08, 2021 9:51 am

glennpm

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Dai wrote:Laitch; if the HES or ICU or FICU was faulty, you'd be losing cyl. 1 & 4, not just 4? If cyl.1 is firing, then logically that eliminates just about everything except the plug lead, plug and injector.

Actually, maybe not even the injector itself but corrosion on the terminals inside the connector. I've seen that causing a nasty intermittant misfire before now; eventually the cylinder stopped firing at all (no.4 IIRC ) and that's what led me to the connector.

Good suggestion Dai!

Point-Seven-five · 70 Re: Starting problems on a 87 K100 Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:38 am

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I think that the problem is hard starting, no ignition on cylinder #4, and death when the throttle is opened. Is that correct?

If so, it tells me that there is a lean mixture, possibly combined with a bad wire on cylinder #4(changing spark plugs with #1 didn't change it). It's also possible that the Ignition Control Unit is having a problem resulting in a weak spark that can't handle the higher cylinder pressures when the throttle is cracked open.

What do we know for sure? Fuel pressure looks okay at approximately 35psi, valve clearance is good, injectors appear to be spraying, we have spark on cylinders 1,2,&3(possibly #4), and compression is good and balanced at 165psi on all cylinders. All the basics are there to make the engine run.

I don't recall seeing where the crankcase breather Z tube has been addressed. I would suggest looking there, as well as blocking the vacuum tube on the cylinder #4 throttle body. I base that on the report that the engine ran better when that throttle body was connected to the vacuum balancer.

If it were my bike, I'd be looking hard for an air leak.

It's also a very outside chance, but you might want to disconnect the throttle position switch. Sometimes it can cause a problem if it's faulty or maladjusted.

Ccanov · 71 Re: Starting problems on a 87 K100 Mon Feb 08, 2021 5:22 pm

Ccanov

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I just realized that i did the test with the injectors in the rail and all of them were sprying fuel.

How can I measure the connector? The one time that I manage to start the motorcycle I recall that I disconnect and connect (hard) the connector to the ECU under the seat...

Ccanov · 72 Re: Starting problems on a 87 K100 Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:14 pm

Ccanov

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Good news! I removed the injector from the pipe exhaust that was cold and realice that the ones that i had as a replacement were a little shorter, so I put back the originals that i already test in the past and with some effort and starting spray I was able to start it and also ride it in the parking lot. All the pipes now are hot Smile

I removed the throttle body to inspect the intake manifolds when replacing the rubbers and I guess that I need to adjust the choke cable to see if I can start it without the starting spray.

The bad news Sad

- Looks like it works, but still not starting without the help of the starting spray (Once started I can ride it with the choke but revving it a lot)
- The exhaust is smoking (a lot) of white smoke.
- One of the joint between the exhaust and the pipes (there is 1 brace for each pipe) is leaking oil. Not sure why. I follow one of the tips to add some oil through the spark plugs but was some time ago. Not sure if it is still there or not.. The compression test was fine, and if its burning oil that is not the color to be expected correct. The motorcycle is always on the center stand.

So I am not sure if, because it was stopped for a few years, I should run it like that for a while until all the crap inside is burned or if that can make it worst. I was planning to remove the exhaust headers to see if all the oil inside get out. Maybe the white smoke its because of the oil that is already in the exhaust pipes.

I can upload some videos if anyone want to see the smoke (at idle and running)

Suzi Q · 73 Re: Starting problems on a 87 K100 Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:49 pm

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If you've got oil in your headers (which can happen with these bikes) it can certainly take a while before it all burns away, but that would be blue smoke, smelling of burnt oil.
White 'smoke' may well be steam - i.e. a problem with the head gasket scratch

Laitch · 74 Re: Starting problems on a 87 K100 Sun Feb 28, 2021 2:09 pm

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Ccanov wrote:What I have done: . . .

Did you check the resistance values of the coolant temperature sensor?

Ccanov · 75 Re: Starting problems on a 87 K100 Sun Feb 28, 2021 2:28 pm

Ccanov

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Laitch wrote:

Ccanov wrote:What I have done: . . .

Did you check the resistance values of the coolant temperature sensor?

I check the water temperature sensor from the pins to the ljetronic when the bike was cold at the very beginning of this trouble shooting and was 3k ohms. I did not checked it again with the bike warm...

Point-Seven-five · 76 Re: Starting problems on a 87 K100 Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:02 pm

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Resistance of the temperature sensor should be about 250-300 ohms when the engine is warmed up to operating temperature.

+1 on Chris suggesting steam in the exhaust from the head gasket. Keep an eye on the coolant level. Also, if it is a leak, the cylinder where the coolant is leaking will have a cleaner spark plug than the others. Pull your spark plugs and look at them. They are your window into the cylinder.

Have you set and balanced the air screws on the throttle bodies? If they are too tight they will prevent the engine from idling without the "choke". They should be about 1 1/2 turns out from lightly bottomed. It is also possible that the throttle stop screw is letting the butterflies close too much and needs to be adjusted as well.

You checked the Hall sensor timing on this engine, haven't you?

And yes, a lot of oil in the cylinders and exhaust can take as much as 10 minutes of running to completely burn off.

Ccanov · 77 Re: Starting problems on a 87 K100 Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:36 pm

Ccanov

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The hall sensor it’s new so I guess that it’s ok.

I’ll check all the indications here and come back again. I’ll try to start it for 5 more minutes. But the landlord already told me about the smoke Sad

so not sure if I’ll be able to do it. Replace the head gasket sounds like a hard job.. I’ll read a little more and check the spark plugs.

Sorry for the timing but I do not have too much time now and with the restrictions to work on the motorcycle here it’s been hard to find the right time so no one complain again

Point-Seven-five · 78 Re: Starting problems on a 87 K100 Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:51 pm

Point-Seven-five

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I just wanted to make sure the Hall timing is correct, that the cutouts line up.

Laitch · 79 Re: Starting problems on a 87 K100 Sun Feb 28, 2021 4:14 pm

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Ccanov wrote:The hall sensor it’s new so I guess that it’s ok.

Point-seven-five wrote:I just wanted to make sure the Hall timing is correct, that the cutouts line up.

Starting problems on a 87 K100 - Page 2 Scree131

daveyson · 80 No go Mon Mar 01, 2021 3:56 am

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I think you have way too much oil in your bike.

While level on the centre stand, and with the engine cold, the oil level should be at or below the top of the red circle on the sight glass (but above the bottom of the circle) I'd drain some out.

Hopefully it's just a condensation problem, the oil should not look like a cappuccino colour from the sight glass, or the oil filler cap.

Ccanov · 81 Re: Starting problems on a 87 K100 Fri May 14, 2021 6:24 pm

Ccanov

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It’s been a long time since last time I wrote. I ordered some parts that I saw weren’t fine at all and it’s starting now.

I replace the boots? Plastics to the throttle body to the engine (intake manifold?) and also I get the set of wires from euro motor electronics, my black wire from starter relay to the starter was kind of burnt so for 25$ I update all the 3 that they provide as a pack (starter negative, ground battery and positive) and now starts at the first try. I guess my issue was more related with the plastic part than wires but I changed both at the same time.

I ride a few blocks from home and smells like burnt Smile

but I guess it’s normal. I will replace fluids before a proper test drive. Oil, transmission and radiator fluid may have more than 3 years in there..

Now that I know it works I can start with the real project Smile

Thanks you all for your responses.

Point-Seven-five · 82 Re: Starting problems on a 87 K100 Fri May 14, 2021 9:22 pm

Point-Seven-five

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I hope you will keep us posted on how things are going.

Ccanov · 83 Re: Starting problems on a 87 K100 Fri May 14, 2021 10:03 pm

Ccanov

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Sure!

I read a lot and learnt a lot too. Tomorrow I’ll be replacing the speedometer with the tenent that looks pretty straight forward, change headlight and adding front turning lights... mine where on the fairing so small and hopefully “easy” upgrade.

Ccanov · 84 Re: Starting problems on a 87 K100 Sat May 15, 2021 6:52 pm

Ccanov

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For some reason I thought that starts = works and... not Sad

After a short ride stalls. I have to wait and start it again. Probably temperature related but I guess that I will need to review the coolant and the fan (I think never turn on on those 10 minutes)

Holister · 85 Re: Starting problems on a 87 K100 Mon May 17, 2021 11:23 pm

Holister

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Ccanov wrote:.....
After a short ride stalls. I have to wait and start it again.

What's a short ride? 10min? 20min? 30min?

If it's stalling after 15-20min and just getting up to normal operating temp, then it could be the temp sensor. Easy to check with a meter.
If it's stalling after the engine get really hot then it could be the hall sensors.

Ccanov · 86 Re: Starting problems on a 87 K100 Tue May 18, 2021 1:28 am

Ccanov

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Holister wrote:

Ccanov wrote:.....
After a short ride stalls. I have to wait and start it again.

What's a short ride? 10min? 20min? 30min?

If it's stalling after 15-20min and just getting up to normal operating temp, then it could be the temp sensor. Easy to check with a meter.
If it's stalling after the engine get really hot then it could be the hall sensors.

10 minutes in the city, a few blocks to test. Actually I was trying to get it warm to change the oil. I’ll have to do some tests with the temperature sensor, but I have to replace the coolant first and check the hose. I am not sure but I think that there were “boubles” in the “straw” in the coolant reservoir, but was not coolant, so I will check the hole system abs replace fluids. The motorcycle le has been sitting for at least 3 years so I need to change all the fluids.

When I check the temperature sensor at the very beginning I get the right reading when cold, now that I am able to start it I have to check again to see if it changes values.

Tarlin · 87 Re: Starting problems on a 87 K100 Thu May 20, 2021 5:03 pm

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Sorry I can't be of any help (read trough some of the posts, and I am out of my league here), but since I am also having some issues with my '87 not starting, could you provide the link to the temp sensor testing procedure. I tried searching but couldn't find it. Thanks!

Ccanov · 88 Re: Starting problems on a 87 K100 Thu May 20, 2021 5:58 pm

Ccanov

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Tarlin wrote:Sorry I can't be of any help (read trough some of the posts, and I am out of my league here), but since I am also having some issues with my '87 not starting, could you provide the link to the temp sensor testing procedure. I tried searching but couldn't find it. Thanks!

I found several ways to test it here, but so far I am going to start measuring the resistance at the sensor level when cold and after a few minutes idling I see if it changes. After that I will check if moving to water, wiring or whatever is next.

In the page 18 there is a reference about the expected values [url=https://bmwmotorcycletech.info/K100 troubleshooting Starting.pdf]https://bmwmotorcycletech.info/K100%20troubleshooting%20Starting.pdf[/url]

Tarlin · 89 Re: Starting problems on a 87 K100 Thu May 20, 2021 6:04 pm

Tarlin

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Thanks!

robmack · 90 Re: Starting problems on a 87 K100 Thu May 20, 2021 7:49 pm

robmack

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http://www.motobrick.com/index.php?topic=11299.msg98562#msg98562

This links to an excel sheet with the actually measured response curve for the BMW temp sensor.

Ccanov · 91 Re: Starting problems on a 87 K100 Sat May 22, 2021 11:50 am

Ccanov

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Back to square 1 Smile

I just add some coolant before trying to start it today to ensure that there was coolant in there but no start again. Last few days was starting with the first click. So time to start again. The only thing I can imagine is that now there is coolant in the circuit and the water temp sensor is preventing the k to start and maybe last time was empty. There was a moment during the trouble shooting that the k was pushing a lot of white smoke and you guys told me that maybe the oil/water pump was mixing things and I was burning that. Is that even possible?

I was going to measure the temp when hot but know I can’t, so I guess that I will flush the coolant and check the water thermostat in the kitchen.

Laitch · 92 Re: Starting problems on a 87 K100 Sat May 22, 2021 12:43 pm

Laitch

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Ccanov wrote:I just add some coolant before trying to start it today to ensure that there was coolant in there but no start again.

I was going to measure the temp when hot but know I can’t

When you crank it but it doesn't start, take a look at a spark plug. Is it wet or dry?

What are you trying to determine by measuring the coolant temperature—if that is what you're trying to measure?

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51 No go Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:03 pm

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52 Re: Starting problems on a 87 K100 Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:14 am

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53 Re: Starting problems on a 87 K100 Wed Jan 20, 2021 2:40 am

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54 Re: Starting problems on a 87 K100 Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:10 am

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55 Re: Starting problems on a 87 K100 Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:04 am

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56 Re: Starting problems on a 87 K100 Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:25 am

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58 Re: Starting problems on a 87 K100 Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:56 am

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59 Re: Starting problems on a 87 K100 Thu Jan 21, 2021 4:39 pm

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60 Re: Starting problems on a 87 K100 Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:47 pm

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61 Re: Starting problems on a 87 K100 Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:58 pm

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62 Re: Starting problems on a 87 K100 Sun Feb 07, 2021 8:36 pm

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63 Re: Starting problems on a 87 K100 Sun Feb 07, 2021 8:41 pm

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64 Re: Starting problems on a 87 K100 Sun Feb 07, 2021 11:01 pm

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65 Re: Starting problems on a 87 K100 Mon Feb 08, 2021 12:09 am

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72 Re: Starting problems on a 87 K100 Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:14 pm

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73 Re: Starting problems on a 87 K100 Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:49 pm

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74 Re: Starting problems on a 87 K100 Sun Feb 28, 2021 2:09 pm

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75 Re: Starting problems on a 87 K100 Sun Feb 28, 2021 2:28 pm

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77 Re: Starting problems on a 87 K100 Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:36 pm

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78 Re: Starting problems on a 87 K100 Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:51 pm

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80 No go Mon Mar 01, 2021 3:56 am

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83 Re: Starting problems on a 87 K100 Fri May 14, 2021 10:03 pm

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84 Re: Starting problems on a 87 K100 Sat May 15, 2021 6:52 pm

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85 Re: Starting problems on a 87 K100 Mon May 17, 2021 11:23 pm

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86 Re: Starting problems on a 87 K100 Tue May 18, 2021 1:28 am

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87 Re: Starting problems on a 87 K100 Thu May 20, 2021 5:03 pm

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88 Re: Starting problems on a 87 K100 Thu May 20, 2021 5:58 pm

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89 Re: Starting problems on a 87 K100 Thu May 20, 2021 6:04 pm

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