Strange happening

TIV · 1 Strange happening Wed Sep 04, 2013 4:19 pm

TIV

Silver member

Number of posts : 129

I had a very strange incident on my K yesterday. In the morning I rode it to work as I often do. At lunchtime I visited an old friend and had tea. When I rode it back to work (only about 5 minutes ride) I heard this ugly noise from the engine all the way.

Parked back at my work, I switched off the ignition, all lights in the dash board went out but the starter motor turned constantly and the engine would not die! I tried the kill switch immediately but in vain. Then I kicked it into gear and let the clutch go and then it died.

Has anyone experienced anything like this, or can explain this strange behavior? I have used the bike three times since this occurred, and everything has been fine.

Shocked

dutchie · 2 Re: Strange happening Wed Sep 04, 2013 4:36 pm

dutchie

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Number of posts : 31

Hi, check the brushes on the starter motor, and the starter-relay

grtz Dick

JimK · 3 Re: Strange happening Wed Sep 04, 2013 5:58 pm

JimK

Gold member

Number of posts : 215

Hi. Welcome TIV.

Starter relays stuck together..."fused" is the word some use when power is low...mostly due to cranking because it won't start...and the relays bind together.

Hit the relay box with a knuckle or the blunt end of the screwdriver....after disconnecting the earth ground or the battery as quickly as possible.

Found that out last year...and it worked!

Same thing happened to me....early into my ownership.
That's an awful, helpless thing when first experienced... Smile

My response was to dance around in little circles besides the bike, flapping arms up and down and hollering, "Oh, s**t, Oh, s**t, Oh s**t..thinking it's my new bike and I've screwed it up!".

Funny now not then... Smile

Got a new battery and checked brain connections and ground connection on down near the coils.

Not a problem since the new battery....not saying that is your problem.

The gurus here will tell you to dress out the electrical connections with Deoxit...sold at Radio Shack in America by a different name.

Seems that we see this problem about every month.
Hope that someone might consider putting the subject on the So You Bought a K bike.... listing

TIV · 4 Re: Strange happening Wed Sep 04, 2013 7:09 pm

TIV

Silver member

Number of posts : 129

Thanks Jim, this is a perfectly good explanation. Having worked on electrics and electronics the best part of my life I´m familiar with Deoxit (great stuff) and the term "fusing". I cleaned all connections with Deoxit in 2009 when I bought this bike and gave it a serious overhaul. Put in a new battery at the same time, it measured 12,73 Volts yesterday after the dreadful incident.
affraid

Maybe it would be a good idea to overhaul the starter this coming winter and buy a starter relay to keep as a spare. What would I have to buy, other than brushes in order to overhaul the starter motor?

Last edited by TIV on Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:13 pm; edited 1 time in total

the.postman · 5 Re: Strange happening Wed Sep 04, 2013 7:32 pm

the.postman

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Number of posts : 330

Parts 11 and 13

The Brushes come separately, one already on the backing plate (13)

TIV · 6 Re: Strange happening Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:11 pm

TIV

Silver member

Number of posts : 129

the.postman wrote:Parts 11 and 13. The Brushes come separately, one already on the backing plate (13)

Sorry, do not quite follow.... how many brushes are in the starter? Do you recommend a new backing plate with one attached and the other/others separately?

the.postman · 7 Re: Strange happening Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:28 pm

the.postman

Life time member

Number of posts : 330

That's how the brushes are supplied from BMW

You buy them individually. One (13) already attached to the backing plate

Here is the link for Motobins

TIV · 8 Re: Strange happening Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:41 pm

TIV

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Number of posts : 129

Thanks postman... ;-)

Rick G · 9 Re: Strange happening Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:20 am

Rick G

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Number of posts : 12055

What happens is caused by the battery not being up to scratch.
When you hit the starter button the relay operates and the starter turns but because it draws heaps of current (50amp) the battery voltage drops below the 10.5 volts that is the lower operating limit as a result the starter turns slowly and thus draws more current which in turn drops the voltage futher. The result is almost a doubling of current and with relays that have a less than perfect connection on the contacts they weld shut and sometimes permanently and often melting the smaller spark limiting contact right off the spring leaf.

It's such a common occurence that I have installed Anderson plugs on both bikes so the power can be disconnected quickly.
PS Often they don't start because if the voltage drops lower than 9 volts the ECU wont work and no go.
Remove your starter relay and check the contacts have fully functioning contacts. There are 2 contacts one releases after the main contact so to give a spark quench circuit and not erode the main contact.
Bosch have 2 types one with 1 contact and one with 2 contacts either work well but the single contact won't last as long.

Last edited by RicK G on Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:25 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : I had not reached my word limit)

Erman · 10 Re: Strange happening Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:02 am

Erman

Gold member

Number of posts : 230

I've installed a cut-out switch between the battery negative and the starter motor to avoid unnecessary drain on the battery. Incidentally, it also helped when the starter relay got stuck before I had it replaced.
As for the clock on the dash? Well it never worked anyway Laughing

Crazy Frog · 11 Re: Strange happening Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:35 am

Crazy Frog

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Number of posts : 5045

Erman wrote:I've installed a cut-out switch between the battery negative and the starter motor to avoid unnecessary drain on the battery. Incidentally, it also helped when the starter relay got stuck before I had it replaced.
As for the clock on the dash? Well it never worked anyway

I did the same thing. It also acts as an engine immobilizer.

TIV · 12 Re: Strange happening Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:05 pm

TIV

Silver member

Number of posts : 129

This leads to a question about the battery itself. Three years ago I purchased a battery that I thought would be great for this bike. 32 Amperes big "wet" battery that fits perfectly in the carrier.

It has never drained out on me, but from the beginning it has given me a "weak" start as it is having a hard time cranking the motor. All the same I usually only have to hit the starter once or twice to fire up the motor. What kind/ type of battery´s do you use?

Last edited by TIV on Thu Sep 05, 2013 5:22 pm; edited 1 time in total

ARTCOLLINSJR · 13 deoxit Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:16 pm

ARTCOLLINSJR

Silver member

Number of posts : 61

Radio shack around me just returned their Deoxit. Got it at Guitar Center

AL-58 · 14 Re: Strange happening Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:34 pm

AL-58

Life time member

Number of posts : 1551

I'm running a 28AH Panasonic AGM battery meant for a UPS. It's been there a few years now. Reliable, good cranking power, holds charge well even when the bike isn't being ridden. I'll definitely buy another when the time comes. Its an LC-X12228P. It was a much better price than any of the "standard" batteries about at the time.

Al

92KK 84WW Olaf · 15 Re: Strange happening Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:56 pm

92KK 84WW Olaf

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Number of posts : 7955

My battery failed when I was in West of Ireland far from a BMW dealer. So I ended up in a lawnmower centre and put a 21AH battery in the LT. Its still perfect 3 years later.

More recently had the starter out and its quite easy to do. As it says all you need are the two brushes and clean it out completely. Plenty of used starter motors around. Since you have had the battery out before all you need is to repeat that and take out two Allen screws to get the starter out. WD40 them [and the electrical connection on top] a day or two before.....

The starter is simplicity itself but the two ends need to be aligned when you are reassembling so just make two scratches so you can line them up. The two long Philips screws should come out easy enough. Probably full of crud inside but it will all clean out ok.

A bendy drive and small socket will let you get the relays out of the relay box without removing the petrol tank.

For the sake of it I would recommend getting a used starter relay and also load shed relay and put them in. Its cheap money but peace of mind, just get them from Motobins or Motorworks when you are getting the brushes. Keep the old ones as spares.

Overall its a very simple and straightforward job.

Good luck too.

Rick G · 16 Re: Strange happening Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:26 pm

Rick G

admin

Number of posts : 12055

TIV wrote:This leads to the question of the battery itself. Three years ago I purchased a battery that I thought would be great for this bike. 32 Amperes big wet battery that fits in the carrier.

It has never drained out on me, but from the beginning it has given me a "weak" start as it is having a hard time turning the motor over. I usually only have to hit the starter once. What kind/ type of battery´s do you use?

I would be checking out the starter, they are a much neglected item. Check the brushes for length and also make sure the bearings are OK. If a bearing collapses the armature can drag against the magnets and cause a slow starter and a big current drain.

the.postman · 17 Re: Strange happening Thu Sep 05, 2013 4:24 pm

the.postman

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Number of posts : 330

92KK K100LT 193214 wrote:My battery failed when I was in West of Ireland far from a BMW dealer. So I ended up in a lawnmower centre and put a 21AH battery in the LT. Its still perfect 3 years later.

I also have a lawnmower battery in mine.
A great 32AH Enduroline for less than £40 bought in june 2011 and never had a problem with it. bought from Tayna batteries
For some reason a similar battery in there m/c range cost £20 more

TIV · 18 Re: Strange happening Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:38 pm

TIV

Silver member

Number of posts : 129

I´ll do the starter and buy a used starter and load shed relay's as suggested this coming winter. I like tinkering around in the winter. Before this came up I had decided to do adjust the valves, check the timing and sync the throttle bodies. Thanks for the help and all the good advice.
Very Happy

robmack · 19 Re: Strange happening Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:58 pm

robmack

Life time member

Number of posts : 2334

Bosch Part Number: 0 332 002 150

Should be a drop in replacement for the BMW unit. Available from Texas Industrial (link above) and from Euromotoelectrics

the.postman · 20 Re: Strange happening Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:36 am

the.postman

Life time member

Number of posts : 330

Crazy Frog wrote a short post about this a few years ago

Read all about it

TIV · 21 Re: Strange happening Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:12 pm

TIV

Silver member

Number of posts : 129

the.postman wrote:Crazy Frog wrote a short post about this a few years ago

Read all about it

Very well explained Crazy Frog.....
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1 Strange happening Wed Sep 04, 2013 4:19 pm

TIV

2 Re: Strange happening Wed Sep 04, 2013 4:36 pm

dutchie

3 Re: Strange happening Wed Sep 04, 2013 5:58 pm

JimK

4 Re: Strange happening Wed Sep 04, 2013 7:09 pm

TIV

5 Re: Strange happening Wed Sep 04, 2013 7:32 pm

the.postman

6 Re: Strange happening Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:11 pm

TIV

7 Re: Strange happening Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:28 pm

the.postman

8 Re: Strange happening Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:41 pm

TIV

9 Re: Strange happening Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:20 am

Rick G

10 Re: Strange happening Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:02 am

Erman

11 Re: Strange happening Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:35 am

Crazy Frog

12 Re: Strange happening Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:05 pm

TIV

13 deoxit Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:16 pm

ARTCOLLINSJR

14 Re: Strange happening Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:34 pm

AL-58

15 Re: Strange happening Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:56 pm

92KK 84WW Olaf

16 Re: Strange happening Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:26 pm

Rick G

17 Re: Strange happening Thu Sep 05, 2013 4:24 pm

the.postman

18 Re: Strange happening Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:38 pm

TIV

19 Re: Strange happening Thu Sep 05, 2013 11:58 pm

robmack

20 Re: Strange happening Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:36 am

the.postman

21 Re: Strange happening Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:12 pm

TIV

22 Re: Strange happening

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