1 Bike will not start (fuel injector, fuel pump, HALL) Sat Feb 14, 2009 11:20 am
Crazy Frog
admin
Since all the previous tests have not given any solutions, here are few thoughts.....
Your comments are welcome.
Fuel Injectors:
On the K bikes, each fuel injector has a resistance of 16 Ohms.
They are wired in parallel.
If the 4 fuel injector coils are OK, the total resistance between the yellow/green and green/red* wires should be 4 Ohms :
Total resistance = 1/(1/16 + 1/16 + 1/16 + 1/16)
*According to the electrical wiring, the green/red wire become black after the plug of the altitude corrector. This was optional on US models only. If you measure the resistance at the plug off the EFI computer, the color of the wires should be Yellow/Green and black
if 1 injector coil is bad the total resistance will be 5.33 Ohms ( 1/(1/16 + 1/16 + 1/16) )
if 2 injector coils are bad, the total resistance will be 8 Ohms ( 1/(1/16 + 1/16) )
if 3 injector coils are bad the total resistance will be 16 Ohms ( 1/(1/16) )
Now, what would happen if one fuel injector is seized???
Would the intensity (I) in the circuit raise to the point that the EFI computer port would shut down?
I don't think that the coil will pull more intensity as I believe that the inductance stays constant (what ever load it has to pull) and the only factor to change the intensity is the physical shape ( # of turns and size of the wire making the coil, and the voltage applied to it...) joules, watts RLC circuit and coils study is so old that I just remember the name
If you have the knowledge, please let me know if I am wrong
HALL Sensor:
Nobody had spoken about the HALL sensors.
If I remember correctly, if the Hall Effect Sensor is not giving a signal, the fuel pump gets shut down.
A good test would be to remove the fuel hose at fuel injector ramp and put it in a container. Then you pull the starter for 4-5 seconds to see if the flow of fuel is constant. (When people said I get flow from the pump, how long do they try it? ). Maybe Bosch has some sort of timer built in the EFI computer and if after a pre-programmed time it has not received a signal from the HALL, it will shut down the pump.
This would make sense as it would prevents flooding your cylinders if the engine is not turning.
Do you know what is the function of the spring under the valve cover?
- To provide a ground for the HALL sensor (You learn a lot on the internet)
Just an extra bit of information about troubleshooting the HALL sensor:
If your bike is cutting off or cannot rev at maximum speed when hot, it could be an internal crack in the HALL sensor. A microscopic crack on a board will expand when the device becomes hot and the contact will be open. When the device cools down, the crack closes and the system is running fine until it warms up again. (This is a common problem on computer motherboards)
I found on the IBMWR a way to test for such a problem.
Remove the cover of your HALL sensor, start the bike and with a hair dryer warm up the hall sensor. If the bike starts to run "crappy", shut off the heat of the air dryer and cool down the sensor. If the bike starts to run OK again, you found your problem.
For people have problem starting their bike, when you pull the starter, is your RPM going up on the tachometer? I believe that the RPM is feed by the back/blue wire on ignition coil #1 (Not sure if you should see it and is too cold to go on the shed and test it on the bike. People in a hot climate should be able to come with a quick answer)
For the few(many) people having troubles with their EFI, I would also check the wiring harness going to the EFI computer. Their is a very tight bend just before the plug and 1 wire maybe damaged. Simply cut the jacket around the wires and visually inspect each wires individually.
Fuel Injection pressure tester
By: Clarence Dold (from IBMWR)
Don mentions "special tools". The special tool that I used was an engine compression gauge. Mine was the really cheap kind. A dial with a stubby metal tube. The metal tube has a rubber sleeve on it. You jam the gauge against a spark plug hole and watch.
To use it to measure rotary engine compression (Oh, no, that's a $600 tool), I took the Schraeder valve out of the end of the tube, so it would release the reading, allowing the odd triple chamber rotary to show its true compression.
To use it to measure K-bike fuel pressure, I pulled the rubber thing off. This left me with a 3/8" metal pipe coming out of the gauge. I had a metal tee left over from something. I used the tee and a couple of chunks of "normal" fuel line to tee this gauge in, at the aft end of the fuel rail, where the hose feeds to the regulator.
Hitting the starter switch should cause the pressure to kick up to 60 psi. When the engine starts, vacuum control on the regulator will pull the pressure down to 40 psi. Turning the engine off should leave you with 40 psi. How long you wait for it to leak down wasn't mentioned. Mine was still at 40 psi 30 minutes after I shut the engine off.
If you disconnect the vacuum hose that controls the regulator (mine comes off the rear throttle body), the pressure would go up to 60 psi. Applying some vacuum to this line (I sucked on it) should drop it down. I can get the pressure down to about 30 psi. This portion of the test might be performed while the engine is running, or by "bumping" the starter switch, which lets the fuel pump run for a few seconds.
When my regulator was bad, it would stay at 60 psi. The vacuum line had no control at all. Even at 60 psi, the injectors didn't leak. I let it sit for several minutes. The "normal" fuel hoses that I was using would swell noticeably at the 60 psi range, so it would probably be wise to use some FI-rated hoses instead.
The compression gauge isn't expected to be accurate in this pressure range, but I was looking for go/no-go, not tuning help.
With the engine running and the pressure stuck at 60, the bike actually ran most of the time. It was hard to start, but if I could get it started, and keep the RPM up, it was usable. And this was on a K75, with no feedback in the FI system. A K12, with feedback, might well adjust the injection to accommodate the high fuel delivery, but the injectors might leak down when stopped, dumping some fuel into places you don't want it.
Bert
Your comments are welcome.
Fuel Injectors:
On the K bikes, each fuel injector has a resistance of 16 Ohms.
They are wired in parallel.
If the 4 fuel injector coils are OK, the total resistance between the yellow/green and green/red* wires should be 4 Ohms :
Total resistance = 1/(1/16 + 1/16 + 1/16 + 1/16)
*According to the electrical wiring, the green/red wire become black after the plug of the altitude corrector. This was optional on US models only. If you measure the resistance at the plug off the EFI computer, the color of the wires should be Yellow/Green and black
if 1 injector coil is bad the total resistance will be 5.33 Ohms ( 1/(1/16 + 1/16 + 1/16) )
if 2 injector coils are bad, the total resistance will be 8 Ohms ( 1/(1/16 + 1/16) )
if 3 injector coils are bad the total resistance will be 16 Ohms ( 1/(1/16) )
Now, what would happen if one fuel injector is seized???
Would the intensity (I) in the circuit raise to the point that the EFI computer port would shut down?
I don't think that the coil will pull more intensity as I believe that the inductance stays constant (what ever load it has to pull) and the only factor to change the intensity is the physical shape ( # of turns and size of the wire making the coil, and the voltage applied to it...) joules, watts RLC circuit and coils study is so old that I just remember the name
If you have the knowledge, please let me know if I am wrong
HALL Sensor:
Nobody had spoken about the HALL sensors.
If I remember correctly, if the Hall Effect Sensor is not giving a signal, the fuel pump gets shut down.
A good test would be to remove the fuel hose at fuel injector ramp and put it in a container. Then you pull the starter for 4-5 seconds to see if the flow of fuel is constant. (When people said I get flow from the pump, how long do they try it? ). Maybe Bosch has some sort of timer built in the EFI computer and if after a pre-programmed time it has not received a signal from the HALL, it will shut down the pump.
This would make sense as it would prevents flooding your cylinders if the engine is not turning.
Do you know what is the function of the spring under the valve cover?
- To provide a ground for the HALL sensor (You learn a lot on the internet)
Just an extra bit of information about troubleshooting the HALL sensor:
If your bike is cutting off or cannot rev at maximum speed when hot, it could be an internal crack in the HALL sensor. A microscopic crack on a board will expand when the device becomes hot and the contact will be open. When the device cools down, the crack closes and the system is running fine until it warms up again. (This is a common problem on computer motherboards)
I found on the IBMWR a way to test for such a problem.
Remove the cover of your HALL sensor, start the bike and with a hair dryer warm up the hall sensor. If the bike starts to run "crappy", shut off the heat of the air dryer and cool down the sensor. If the bike starts to run OK again, you found your problem.
For people have problem starting their bike, when you pull the starter, is your RPM going up on the tachometer? I believe that the RPM is feed by the back/blue wire on ignition coil #1 (Not sure if you should see it and is too cold to go on the shed and test it on the bike. People in a hot climate should be able to come with a quick answer)
For the few(many) people having troubles with their EFI, I would also check the wiring harness going to the EFI computer. Their is a very tight bend just before the plug and 1 wire maybe damaged. Simply cut the jacket around the wires and visually inspect each wires individually.
Fuel Injection pressure tester
By: Clarence Dold (from IBMWR)
Don mentions "special tools". The special tool that I used was an engine compression gauge. Mine was the really cheap kind. A dial with a stubby metal tube. The metal tube has a rubber sleeve on it. You jam the gauge against a spark plug hole and watch.
To use it to measure rotary engine compression (Oh, no, that's a $600 tool), I took the Schraeder valve out of the end of the tube, so it would release the reading, allowing the odd triple chamber rotary to show its true compression.
To use it to measure K-bike fuel pressure, I pulled the rubber thing off. This left me with a 3/8" metal pipe coming out of the gauge. I had a metal tee left over from something. I used the tee and a couple of chunks of "normal" fuel line to tee this gauge in, at the aft end of the fuel rail, where the hose feeds to the regulator.
Hitting the starter switch should cause the pressure to kick up to 60 psi. When the engine starts, vacuum control on the regulator will pull the pressure down to 40 psi. Turning the engine off should leave you with 40 psi. How long you wait for it to leak down wasn't mentioned. Mine was still at 40 psi 30 minutes after I shut the engine off.
If you disconnect the vacuum hose that controls the regulator (mine comes off the rear throttle body), the pressure would go up to 60 psi. Applying some vacuum to this line (I sucked on it) should drop it down. I can get the pressure down to about 30 psi. This portion of the test might be performed while the engine is running, or by "bumping" the starter switch, which lets the fuel pump run for a few seconds.
When my regulator was bad, it would stay at 60 psi. The vacuum line had no control at all. Even at 60 psi, the injectors didn't leak. I let it sit for several minutes. The "normal" fuel hoses that I was using would swell noticeably at the 60 psi range, so it would probably be wise to use some FI-rated hoses instead.
The compression gauge isn't expected to be accurate in this pressure range, but I was looking for go/no-go, not tuning help.
With the engine running and the pressure stuck at 60, the bike actually ran most of the time. It was hard to start, but if I could get it started, and keep the RPM up, it was usable. And this was on a K75, with no feedback in the FI system. A K12, with feedback, might well adjust the injection to accommodate the high fuel delivery, but the injectors might leak down when stopped, dumping some fuel into places you don't want it.
Bert