I would like to build a simple water tube rig for balancing. Anybody know how many inchs of water gauge the engine will pull at idle?

Peter

it's been done before, try these 2 sites for a bit of info
http://www.r6messagenet.com/forums/r6-how-guides/136367-how-make-your-own-carb-sync-tool.html
http://www.powerchutes.com/manometer.asp
i would use better fittings, but it seems to have done the job.

In the end you'll really only be balancing the TBs at idle and just above, which helps smooths things out down low but makes no difference to the actual 'running' synchronisation, which is an involved and tedious process using tools that are mostly out of reach of the home DIYer, and the results can be disastrous if the game's not played well. I use a Twinmax and adjust two at a time then compare. It works well.



Here's a quick tutorial for a quick-n-easy-n-cheap manometre:
http://www.obairlann.net/reaper/motorcycle/manometer.html

I'm sure you are right TWB, that its only good for the idle. What I want to fix is the knocking at idle when cold. A comment on this group the other day got me thinking about that. While the comment said it could also be the rivets it has onle done 22,000km, so I'm hoping thats not the cause.

The other issue when cold is the engine will not keep running in the first fast idle position during the first 4 or 5 minutes, and the second position springs back to the first position if released. Should it idle in the first position? I would like to be able to leave the bike to warm up unassisted while I put my riding gear on.

Peter

You can adjust a bit of free play into or out of the 'choke' cable down near the TPS which will have some affect on the idle when the lever's used. It's gunna idle only a bit faster than 'normal' on the first of the two positions until it warms up a tad.

About suspected rivets, it`s quite easy to check them. Remove all screws from the right sidecover of the engine, and swing it out in the rear end.

Put the bike in gear, move rear wheel forth and back while observing the rivets.

Inge K.

Haven't I read somewhere that you'll hear that the rivets are loose by rapidly decelerating on the road in gear and listening for a pronounced moan or whine as the engine winds down?

pjjms .....i had a similar issue ....i remembered when a plug lead came off i got a near similar sound .....the knocking at idle was getting worse as time went on...after a inspection and a multi meter check i found one of the high tension leads had become open circuit .
now being open circuit itself doesnt always mean it doesnt work ....but at idle when cold, it was really noticeable , as the bike warmed the issue dissappeared.

anyhow long story short , i replaced a faulty high tension lead ,and there is amazingly far less knocking on cold start .

still think there are other issues , ala rivets and i have to build myself a manometer as i notice number 1 tb adjuster looks about another turn out further than all the rest .

did i see somewhere that it was about 27 inches of vacume ???

thats yamaha write up looks a good option..but to use a couple more t type barbs would make it look better

all going well im going to attempt that same design this weekend ...if i get to go home that is .

just a heads up

ungaas wrote:it's been done before, try these 2 sites for a bit of info ....

This is a variation on the above long tube manometers ... without the risk of drawing fluid into the throttle bodies.
Two bottle Manometer

good link rob ...thanks

I just borrowed a set of Honda manometers to balance my K75.
I may do it this Friday and will post pictures of the setting (I was planning to do it for the last 2 months but couldn't find the time
Don't ask why lately I am not very active on the forum. I barely have time to read it. (This year I had time to put only 2K on the bike. Normally I should have put a least 20K.)
Here is pictures of the manometers.

My wife wants to know where to get one of these manometers, she's been making do with a wimpometer for years
RT

RT wrote:My wife wants to know where to get one of these manometers, she's been making do with a wimpometer for years
RT

I did have a set of those above they were a Honda tool but some ******** decided I didnt need them.

I used to use them to do mt 6cyl Kawasaki and you think a 4cyl can be difficult it was a nightmare because I was always swaping two of the tubes around.
Kawasaki did make a brace of 6 but it was a bit rich for me. In 1980 I think it was $350 or round that mark.

I now have set of 4 auto vacuum gauges with the tubes and roller type taps that are used with drip lines in a hospital and it works well but not quite as good as the genuine Honda gauges.

Just had another look at the manometer that TWB put a link to and a thought came to me (a rare thing now days) If you got a large container and put four plastic tubes into it and use ATF you could just hook each tube to one TB and do it like that.
Maybe long tubes would be needed as water at zero is about 32 feet and mercury id about one metre and oil is lighter than water so it would be higher still so a 36foot extention ladder is needed along with more thought but the principle is there.
I used a four litre container and four tubes so as to check on the level of a 32 ft sloop I built. I set the water level in the tubes at the actual water line of the boat so that interior fittings were level when in the water.

Assuming the large container had an open top then the water or oil would just be sucked into the motor until it ran out. If the container had a closed lid water or oil would be sucked into the motor until the air space in the jar reached a vacuum equal to that in the inlets. I think the system need to be closed. With the tubes being linked together near enough the same vacuum is acting on all surfaces of the water or oil so it stays put bar a slight movement. The way the 2 jar manometer is piped up (the 2 jars linked) it should just act like a couple of large diameter tubes, as vacuum is acting on both jars, and the liquid in each is linked to the other.

pjjms wrote:Assuming the large container had an open top then the water or oil would just be sucked into the motor until it ran out. If the container had a closed lid water or oil would be sucked into the motor until the air space in the jar reached a vacuum equal to that in the inlets. I think the system need to be closed. With the tubes being linked together near enough the same vacuum is acting on all surfaces of the water or oil so it stays put bar a slight movement. The way the 2 jar manometer is piped up (the 2 jars linked) it should just act like a couple of large diameter tubes, as vacuum is acting on both jars, and the liquid in each is linked to the other.

If the column of water is high enough it will not get to the motor that is why I made what I thought was a humourous remark about a 36ft extensoin lader.
This is the reason that mercury is used because the column will only get to about one metre and then a perfect vacuum is formed and the column gets no higher.

That one went right over my head when I had a read of it the first time K Freak. Sorry about that.

I finally found the time to balance the throttle body and here is the result....
This is not perfect but way better than what it was before (Because of my problems with the bike not starting, I replaced the whole throttle body)

Here is the setup at 2,500 rpm


Here is the setup at idle:


How did I set it up????

I closed all the brass screws and then open them 1 turn.
I then rev the engine at 2,500rpm and set the links on the body to get an equal depression on each cylinders.
When everything looked good (engine has over 350k and you cannot expect the best) I set the idle rpm and then adjusted the brass screw to get an equal depression.
I checked all the setups again and did some fine adjustments.

These gauges are pretty good and I like the feature (Knob) permitting top adjust them to avoid a shaky needle.
Carbtune has a restrictor achieving the same function.

Bert

nice work bert ....those guages are an excelent tool

i wonder what it feels like whilst cruising around now ?
how does the idle sound ?

charlie99 wrote:nice work bert ....those guages are an excelent tool

i wonder what it feels like whilst cruising around now ?
how does the idle sound ?

The bike is still in my basement and I have not tried it on the road. I am just waiting to see if I solved the problem of the bike flooding when starting. If everything is OK, next Friday I will get a safety inspection and start to ride it again.
I like this bike almost better than the K100. This is the perfect ride for the 120 degrees temperature (Eastern Canada) coming this week end!

Not to worry Bert as life does seem to have a habit of getting in the way of enjoying our beloved machines. Like the looks of the little blueboy!

OG

wow bert thats some awesome temperature variation ......some times - something and then +120 .....omg ..

charlie99 wrote:wow bert thats some awesome temperature variation ......some times - something and then +120 .....omg ..

I just checked the weather report and it seems that here along the coast we will stay cooler.
The warning about temperature possibly reaching 120 degrees came from AFP and I guess their predictions were wrong. However, yesterday on the USA east coast, temperatures over 100 degrees have been recorded.
Here is what they need....

Well that didn't go well. Made up a set of balance tubes as per the links above. About 1m long and 50% filled with water. Warmed the bike up, stopped the engine and connected them. The instant I started the engine one cylinder sucked the tubes dry.

So I disconnected them again. Attempted to set the idle but could not get it below 1100rpm. Set the brass screws to one turn out, (they were at 3 truns) and then was able to adjust the idle correctly. Connented the water tubes again with the same result.

Ran out of time to go further. I will see if I can get a gauge this week to test if the setup is just wildly out of adjustment. Maybe the water tubes are too sensitive for the current settings.

Idles like a tractor but gets much better above 2000rpm.

pjjms wrote:Well that didn't go well. Made up a set of balance tubes as per the links above. About 1m long and 50% filled with water. Warmed the bike up, stopped the engine and connected them. The instant I started the engine one cylinder sucked the tubes dry.

So I disconnected them again. Attempted to set the idle but could not get it below 1100rpm. Set the brass screws to one turn out, (they were at 3 truns) and then was able to adjust the idle correctly. Connented the water tubes again with the same result.

Ran out of time to go further. I will see if I can get a gauge this week to test if the setup is just wildly out of adjustment. Maybe the water tubes are too sensitive for the current settings.

Idles like a tractor but gets much better above 2000rpm.

But it is a good quality tractor.

Do keep us in the loop I am interested in the outcome as the water column like that will give a much closer ballance than any gauge.

lol peter ,


they were suposed to be at least 2 meters long and lesss than 1/4 filled .......if you read down further the guys swapped out the water cause it got sucked in ....then they tried it with fork oil /2 stroke oil to lesen up the sensativity (cause the viscosity of the oils).

but im watching too mate ....

funny but ....giggle

I did put ATF in to start with but it proved impractical as any air bubbles were near impossible to remove. I am using 4mm ID tubing which may be the reason for that.

So I slipped out to the shed again. Modified the rig to give a total height of 2.4m with 650mm of water in it. Could only do two cylinders as I did not have enough tube. Heres the results in difference in water levels between two cylinders.

2 and 3, 540mm
1 and 3, greater than 1300mm as the total water content was heading up one tube and would have been sucked into the engine after 7 or 8 seconds if I had not stopped the engine.
3 and 4, greater than 1300mm, but I had to stop the engine right away. Water would have been in the engine in less than 2 seconds.

So, assuming the maximum vacuum I can measure with 650mm of water is 1300mm of water gauge, which equals 9.2cm of Hg, which is not much movement on a gauge.

Next test will be to half fill the rig so I can measure 2400mm of vacuum.

What do you think?

Had another play with 1200mm in water and all cylinders stay in the range of the gauge now, the largest difference being 1700mm. So I will get some more tube to setup for four cylinders again and put some restrictors in the lines as the water column jumps around a bit.

Had a quick fiddle with the bleed screw and ended up with one wound right out and one fully closed with the balance closer but still not right, . I will follow Berts proceedure next.

Interesting that the Haynes manual says if the linkages are adjusted the throttle bodies need to be replaced! Haynes come up with some strange stuff at times.

Reason why there is a lot of comments about not touching those linking screws is that at the factory they were adjusted in a special rig that allowed measurement of the flow over the butterflies. Supposedly you can't get it as well adjusted without it. I wonder if that's the case if you could measure the flow with a shopvac and anemometer????
Meantime I'm using a piece of kit from one of the guys on the German forum. Its called prof.sync and produces as screen as below on a laptop. Very precise! I know I know anal etc........

Typical Haynes instruction on motorbike repair: "Park motorcycle on centre stand. Fix engine. Test ride."

sounds like your getting there peter ....good work for retrying .

by the way ....just out of interest what does the beast sound like at idle ...in its current state ?

Two Wheels Better wrote:Typical Haynes instruction on motorbike repair: "Park motorcycle on centre stand. Fix engine. Test ride."

No wonder they arn't any good with all that detail who wants to read all that techie stuff.

It sounds a lot smoother, but still some way to go yet I think.

The factory setup may be very good, but how do we deal with wear in the linkages as time goes by?

Might need something like a flow bench that the cylinder head guys use.

I had a lot of contacts when I was Drag Racing I will try to find out a bit about it and what they are using now days.

It won't be quick so don't wait around but it could be a solution.

maybe a few meters like bert used ....vacume is a good indicator .....especially at revs ......pity we cant include load as well ....like a dyno

To restrict the vacuum on your homemade manometer, use some aquarium valves that you can turn down the vacuum on. You want it adjusted so you get very little 'bounce' on the oil in the tubes.

Wow, nice find Rene!

OG

Well heres the end result.



Without the engine running



Engine at 2500rpm



Engine at idle



The gauge is 2.4m tall and has 1m of water in it.

I added some anti freeze to make it easy to see and some flow restrictors form the pet stores fish tank stock (the whole rig is made of fish tank tube and fittings). I also filled it through the bottom using a syringe. I kept this plugged in simply to plug the hose, but it has the added benefit of adjusting the water level by pulling the plunger in or out. Saved the day when a couple of water levels decided to hide in the mounting block (still there from when the gauge was only 1m high).

Followed Berts proceedure of all 1 turn out then setting at 2500rpm. I did a rough set with a single gauge, as the adjustment was so bad it was almost out of range of the water, ending up with 31 cm/Hg with all within a needle width. Flow restrictors were almost closed to get the gauge needle stable. Not sure this was 100% with swapping the gauge between cylinders. Connected the water gauge and got a variation of about 500mm. Very slow to react so wound the restrictors wide open. They are a needle valve and just having them in the line restricts the flow enough for a stable water level. This is important as having them wound in allowed individual cylinders to win over the others sending the water heading off with no stopping it. I assume this is a symptom of engine paulses and that the restrictor does not allow the negative portion of the paulse sufficent time to pull a vacuum in the water tube.

The water is very sensitive and while the engine settles quickly after a rev the water takes a few more seconds to return to the last position (or close to as it never went back to exactly the same spot). At idle just sitting a screw driver on the bleed screw caused the water to move 50mm or so, making it important to make an adjustment and then waiting for it to settle. In the end I concluded it can be done without a gauge for the initial rough setting, but it did provide an interesting comparison.

The bike runs much smoother when warm with a lot less rumbling noises, so it will be interesting to see what its like cold.



Oh, and by the way, the bike idles like crap when you forget to put the rubber blanking caps back on!



Peter

ReneZ - I bet your bike runs silky smooth, is there more information on the program, ie is it purchasable.

ungaas wrote:ReneZ - I bet your bike runs silky smooth, is there more information on the program, ie is it purchasable.

Yes, Rene. I've been researching this since I saw your post above and was able to find more information, again posted by you to bmwk.nl. Seems the prof.sync tool is an unfinshed project from a couple of contributers to Flyingbrick.de. It has stalled in development because of infighting. The concept looks great; I love that you can use the computer to data acquire and store it for analysis. But getting your hands on such a device as Prof.sync looks to be expensive. ReneZ said in that posting that you could buy a few Carbtunes for the price. I suspect there is a solid state vacuum sensor assembly that needs to be build and interfaces to the PC. I wonder if the hardware could be reverse engineered to make it more widely available to members of this forum.

Prof.sync Sales Brochure

Oh, and by the way, the bike idles like crap when you forget to put the rubber blanking caps back on!



Peter[/quote]





woohoo good work peter.



might be a good idea to drop a tiny bit of nail polish/loctite on all the adjustment screws ...to prevent change huh ?

I've just scored a nice set of K1/K1100 throttle bodies from overseas on eBay. I'm looking forward to being able to set 'em up on my K100 using suggestions in this thread in a coupla weeks time when they arrive. It'll be interesting to 'feel' if there's any noticeable difference in power, if perhaps she'll gain a increase in 'revability', and what the drop in fuel mileage will be compared to the narrower TBs of the K100, which regularly gives me under 5 litres per 100 kilometres travelled (20+ kms per litre).

oh goodie ...this should be fun ..twb !!!

Two Wheels Better wrote:I've just scored a nice set of K1/K1100 throttle bodies from overseas on eBay. I'm looking forward to being able to set 'em up on my K100 using suggestions in this thread in a coupla weeks time when they arrive. It'll be interesting to 'feel' if there's any noticeable difference in power, if perhaps she'll gain a increase in 'revability', and what the drop in fuel mileage will be compared to the narrower TBs of the K100, which regularly gives me under 5 litres per 100 kilometres travelled (20+ kms per litre).

Nice mate! We'll be looking forward to the report.

OG

Cold start today with good results. Smooth and will keep running unassisted in the first cold start lever position.



Well worth the effort and much more satisfaction than having the shop do the work.



Peter

amen peter !!!!

I don't think the 1100 bodies will work on a 100. IIRC they have a different diameter. Then again, could be interesting!



@ Robmack, the project is finished (I have one) and HSCHWEDEN on Flyingbrick.de has build it. There are two bits of kit developed there; this is the later one.

About changing TB`s, in another forum a guy aiming a bit higher and put K12 TB`s on a K75.

Inge K.

Inge K. wrote:About changing TB`s, in another forum a guy aiming a bit higher and put K12 TB`s on a K75.

Inge K.

That would be interesting on a 75 they always seem to be wanting more air to me. They are a very underrated engine and have a lot of potential in the right hands.